Joel: Austin, my friend. How are you?

Austin: I'm good, thanks, how are you?

Joel: Good. You glad it's Friday?

Austin: I'm glad, man.

Joel: Yeah, me too. What are you going to do this weekend?

Austin: Probably some upholstery.

Joel: That's not a vacation. Although I'm working on my table, so I shouldn't say.

Austin: Lots of stuff to do.

Joel: Lots of stuff. So you've listened to a couple. You know how this goes. So a good place to start, I think, is just to describe your professional or educational background before you entered the fine furniture program.

Austin: Yeah, for sure. So educational background; not much. I'm a high school dropout. Made it like halfway through grade ten. It wasn't for me, was never really great at it, so I kind of stopped going in person. Tried doing some online classes here or there, over COVID and stuff like that, and spent a lot of time learning about computers. I took some community college classes in English, philosophy, psychology, but didn't really stick, so here I am.

Joel: What about work experience?

Austin: I worked as a computer salesman for a few years and thats it. Ended up turning into some computer repair kind of stuff. Just helping people out with their computers. Yeah, that was about it.

Joel: So why you said “here I am;” why here? As opposed to pipe trades, mechanical. There's a bunch of different paths you could have pursued that are not, “traditional education,” but also not fine furniture.

Austin: Yeah, I don't know, man. I tried a bunch of different things and I've always kind of liked making stuff. Ever since I was a kid. I'm taking stuff apart and trying to put it back together. Sometimes not successfully, but it's kind of how I like to learn. And this just seemed like a really good fit. I did woodworking in high school and middle school, and I liked it. Kind of got the core concepts of the tools you need and stuff.

Joel: Do you have any woodworkers in your family?

Austin: My grandpa was a hobby woodworker for a long time. I didn't know him too well, and my mom's dad was also, he was a carpenter his whole life professionally, but I never met him, so not really. Just me.

Joel: What does your family think of you enrolling in the program?

Austin: They're really supportive. My wife is really supportive. I think my parents are a bit like, man, it starts at eight. It's a lot. But yeah, they've been supportive. They think it's cool. I don't think they fully understand kind of what we do here. Like, I was telling them about how we were doing, like kitchen cabinet installs, learning about that, and they're like, oh, you do cabinets?

Joel: Don't tell people you know how to do cabinets, man. Then you're never going to hear the end of it. I'm surprised your parents haven't asked you to redo their kitchen yet.

Austin: No, not yet.

Joel: What kind of relationships or friendships have you made in the program?

Austin: So before the program, I was kind of just like, me and my wife and a few close friends for a long time. Didn't really meet anyone new, especially over COVID and stuff. So it's been great just seeing how friendly everyone is. Everyone's so cool and willing to help, and that's been great, just making friends and acquaintances.

Joel: What's your best experience been in the class so far? And by best, it can be a project, a lesson, a day, a feeling, whatever you want it to be.

Austin: I really like when we were sharing our design-it build-its, that was super cool to me. I was just kind of sitting there seeing everyone. Like, I don't know when else we'd be able to all come together. A bunch of different people, have the same prompt for a project and then present all of them and just see what everyone does completely differently and how they did it and kind of get to peek kind of into their personality that way. I really like that. It's been cool.

Joel: How did that make you feel when you were seeing your project next to my project, next to Danielle's project? I mean, what what sorts of emotions were triggered?

Austin: It was kind of just like, I don't know, surreal. And I was really glad to be a part of it. Like, I haven't been a part of very many things in my life, and it's cool just being a part of it and doing this with everyone. We're all in it together.

Joel: What do you suppose is the reason for that atmosphere? Because I agree with you 100%. It's a very communal, friendly place. I've been in plenty of educational situations that are not like that at all. So I don't think there's anything inherent about school, whether it's trade or liberal arts, that creates that sort of atmosphere. Why do you think we have that with fine furniture?

Austin: That's a good question. And, I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with kind of the environment that Sandra has created and Beth and Mike, and it's just a really positive environment, and there's a lot of emphasis on just doing your best and doing what you can do, and I think everyone takes that pretty seriously. And I think a lot of people here are also not really doing their first thing, and they've kind of hit a lot of dead ends and just want to kind of do something easier and together and don't want to take it too seriously.

Joel: In your previous education, in your previous schooling, was it common or did you feel like what was important was just that you do your best, or did you think it was more important that you meet some other sort of metrics?

Austin: Yeah, I always felt like I had to meet some other kind of metrics. I was never the kind of person who's good at stuff right away. I really have to work, even with woodworking. It's like it doesn't come naturally to me, even though I really like it. And, what was the question, Joel?

Joel: Just that there's a difference between the educational experience of being measured by metrics and by just being asked to do your best.

Austin: Well, here I do my best, and it really is good enough. I really feel and believe, like, if I'm just trying and the instructors know that, then they're just going to try and support me and everyone's at different levels. So even if I'm at a bit of a lower level than everyone else, I'm just here to improve myself, and that's what I want out of it. I don't really care about grades or anything like that. I don't look at them. That's not why I'm here. Other kind of academic endeavors I've tried, it's all about grades, and for me, even getting good enough grades to stay in the class is a challenge and stuff like that. So. Yeah, I've liked that.

Joel: How does that feel? And I know the answer is it feels good. But how else does that feel to be in a situation where you're asked and expected to do your best as opposed to meeting some objective criteria that doesn't factor in what kind of person you are or what kind of student you can be?

Austin: Yeah, you're right. It makes me feel good. But more specifically, it kind of makes me sad that this kind of thing is so rare. I've never had an experience like this ever, where I really feel like my best is good enough and I'm just trying to improve myself. And there's no, I don't know, other metrics.

Joel: I know you and I aren't in control of these things. I’m curious as to, your opinion, why do you think that this is such a rare experience?

Austin: I don't know. I think about that a lot. Like I said, it could be just the instructors are really good. It could be that Camosun is really good. It could be that all of us just happen to get along really well.

Joel: You got any best guesses?

Austin: Maybe it's that we're focusing on art and being creative and there's a lot of the time no wrong answer. Well, I mean, there's obviously wrong answers.

Joel: Sometimes that gap in your joinery is just a little too big!

Austin: Sometimes it's a bit big, but you could even argue that it was supposed to look like that.

Joel: I tried that one time. It didn't go over so well.

Austin: You can only try.

Joel: What has been your most frustrating or dispiriting experience? And again, experience can be anything you want it to be.

Austin: Like in school?

Joel: In school, or maybe just over the last nine months that has to do with school. My most frustrating and dispiriting experiences have not been in the classroom, but how I've reacted to my inability to do what I want to do in the classroom. It's more personal for me.

Austin: Yeah, for sure. Least favorite thing. I've kind of put everything I have this year into this program in school and really, just for once in my life, trying to see something through and do well. And it's obviously really hard when you try to put everything into something, you start slacking in other areas, and so it's been a bit frustrating just not having as much time for other stuff.

Joel: Do you feel like you've done well?

Austin: I think so. I'm still here. I thought I was not going to do term two, and then I thought I was not going to do term three and I'm still here.

Joel: Why did you think you weren't going to do the additional terms?

Austin: It was stressful, man. That first couple of weeks, hand tools, I was like, I'm not going to get this. I better get out of here and save myself some time.

Joel: What made you stay?

Austin: Just seeing myself improve. Like, I really, at the beginning of the year, didn't know if I was going to get better at some of this stuff. I thought maybe I'm just at the level that I'm at. But even just seeing little improvements, it's like a huge boost to confidence and it makes you want to keep going and see stuff through. And I think also just that you have to try your best. Like, even if my chair is hideous, at least I have a chair in a gallery and that's all I can do.

Joel: So you've talked about being a nontraditional student and sort of struggling with school. How does it feel to be two weeks away from completing the program? Passing it , getting a good grade, at least good enough to pass.

Austin: Don’t get ahead of ourselves here.

Joel: I’ve got faith in you. And like you just said, having a chair in a gallery, I mean, for you, Austin, how does that, from your background, how does that feel?

Austin: It feels great. Last year, I went and saw the gallery last year, and I just keep thinking, like, I remember thinking, like, I don't believe that next year I'm going to be in this gallery. That's impossible. That's too big of a leap. And yeah, it's surreal. It feels really good. I'm really proud of myself.

Joel: Has sense of accomplishment and slow and steady improvement, has that affected other aspects of your life, affected your relationships at all, or just how you walk into the world outside of the shop?

Austin: Yeah, it really does. Just being able to be confident that I'm working towards being a professional at this, I'm good at it, I'm improving, and also just learning that I can get better at stuff and you just really have to work and you have to put in the time and you really can't give up. Like, even if you think you're terrible at it, the planing is tearing out and it's ruining your pieces. You just got to keep going. Try again.

Joel: Have any loved ones commented on any sort of changes or different aspects of you that they've seen the last nine months?

Austin: Yeah, kind of just like my overall mood and stuff. Like being kind of alone and not really doing much for a long time. It's not good for you. And yeah, I think I'm just kind of overall a lot happier now. People have noticed.

Joel: That's great.

Austin: Yeah.

Joel: What part of the curriculum has affected you the most?

Austin: Probably, like, learning about design. That was something that kind of surprised me because I was like, yeah, we're going to learn about design, but that's, like a side part. We're going to mainly be learning about tools and proper techniques and everything. But learning the tools and techniques is easy. You can always read a textbook or look it up or ask someone if you need to know. But design is, like, you really have to get into a certain mindset and think about things completely differently. And before the program I was someone who was really probably critical of other furniture and just stuff, and I don't like it. It's not really my style, and it's been great to kind of discover what I like, what I think looks good, and I don't know, it just gives you a bit of context. Like, looking around the world, there's so much, like, furniture and wood, and you just before never really noticed it and now you see it everywhere.

Joel: What do you like?

Austin: I'm still figuring that out. I like a lot of different stuff. I'm not huge into traditional furniture, really, like, Chippendale stuff.

Joel: Laurence would be very happy to hear you say that.

Austin: I really like kind of Art Nouveau. That's what I did my research project on.

Joel: That's right. I remember that.

Austin: Yeah. And it's just looked to me, it's, like, super cool and unique and just like, it looks difficult. When I see a piece of furniture, I'm like, how did you even do that? And that's like, Art Nouveau to me.

Joel: What do the concepts of form and function mean to you? And has the class changed how you feel or think about those concepts?

Austin: I don't know if it's really changed how I thought about those concepts. I've definitely got more context about them and what other people think they mean and everything.

Joel: Do you have any strong feelings about them? Because some people do.

Austin: Not really. I mean, when you think about trying to remove form from something, it doesn't make sense. And when you try to remove function, it doesn't make sense even more, and you kind of need both, and you need a balance, and that's kind of what art is, is like combining those two things in a way that is meaningful.

Joel: So does that answer my next question, which is how do you define art?

Austin: I guess so, yeah. Art is kind of just… I've been thinking about that one a lot, too. Like, what is art? It means something different to everyone.

Joel: What does it mean to you?

Austin: To me, I think art is just when someone does something with intention, not, I don't know, just when someone does something with intention. Doesn't have to get more specific than that, really. Anything could be art.

Joel: William Morris defined art as the pleasure that a worker takes in their work. What do you think about that definition?

Austin: I think it's a good definition. I don't know if it makes me think about all of the art that kind of comes out of, like, sadness.

Joel: That's interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Austin: Well, I mean, I'm not like an art historian, but I mean, you look at stuff like, I don't know, grunge music in the 90s that came out of a lot of sadness and just bleakness. And it seems like a lot of art comes out of that, not necessarily just pleasure. I don't know.

Joel: Has the fine furniture program changed how you feel about art or how you feel about trades?

Austin: I've always seen trades pretty positively. I know that's not super popular, but.

Joel: It's getting to be again.

Austin: Yeah, it's getting to be. But I don't know. Even growing up, it was kind of like go to university and trades were kind of the thing you do if you're not good at school. I don't know. I just never really saw it that way. Like, I know trades people make good money, and I know it's hard work. That was something that kind of put me off being like, a plumber or something like that. That seems way too hard for me.

Joel: How about art? Has the program changed how you feel about art?

Austin: Yeah, I think so. Kind of like what I was talking about with just learning about form and function, other people's perspectives and how do you apply it, and just learning that whole kind of thought like, way of thinking, like the school of thought and being introduced to that. It's really changed how I look at stuff.

Joel: Do you think art and trade are affected by politics and economics? And if so, how are they affected?

Austin: Yeah, I mean, they're very affected by economics and politics. Like, you can only you can only really do and create what's in your means. And if you are someone who's really good at, I don't know, like making gold statues out of solid gold, you obviously can't do that if you're struggling to pay the bills. So maybe there's, like, a lot of artists who just never had the opportunity to be discovered and to discover themselves. And that's something that politics and economics would have to do with it, for sure.

Joel: So that's sort of a lead in, or even an answer to my next question, which is, do you think it's possible to be a fully realized artist in this 21st century, capitalist, neo-liberal universe?

Austin: Yeah, I think it is. Because kind of like, what I was talking about before. A lot of art comes out of sorrow, just sadness, and I think it can come out of anything, and I think it can especially come out of bad situations. That seems like where a lot of human ingenuity comes from. And yeah, I mean, like, looking through history, like we're living at one of the greatest times ever, and there's, like, a ton of historical art that's beautiful. So I think it's possible. It's definitely difficult, but can be done.

Joel: What is the first thing you would make if you had no monetary or environmental constraints?

Austin: The first thing…

Joel: Or even just what would you make if you could? Maybe it's not the first thing. Maybe you'd make a nightstand first, but eventually when you get around to it, you got all the money in the world. And if you want to fill a lake with cyanide, you can and not worry about the fish. What would you do?

Austin: For me, it's hard to think of one thing I would build, but I know I've just always wanted to build stuff. I love creating things, no matter what it is. I really like making functional stuff a lot of the time, and this year's really kind of got me more into the art side, which I'm looking forward to exploring too. But I just like building. I don't really care what it is.

Joel: As long as it's something?

Austin: Yeah.

Joel: If I asked you to make something sacred to you, what would you make and sacred? You know, it can be religious. Some people are religious, but it doesn't have to be. Some people's partners sacred to them, or a diary or a dog, a park.

Austin: I think I would really like to build a house to live in and kind of just build things for the house and I don't know, just live kind of a quiet life and build the stuff you need and try to just rely on yourself. Yeah, I feel like that would be really sacred.

Joel: What would your house look like?

Austin: I don't know, man. Modest. I don't want a mansion or anything. I'd love to just have, like, a quiet property. Small house, nice big shop, and that's about it.

Joel: You can only have three tools for woodworking for the rest of your life. What three tools would you choose?

Austin: A table saw, a jointer-planer combo and a CNC router.

Joel: Ooh, I like the jointer-planer combo. That's very clever. You're the first person to think of that one.

Austin: Two for one.

Joel: What sensual memory of the shop will stay with you the longest or be the most vivid? A sight, a smell, a sound?

Austin: Just one something?

Joel: If you really feel strongly about two, go for two.

Austin: Just every day, walking to class in the morning, just like when you get within a certain range of the front, like the fine furniture door, you start just smelling the wood. You start smelling sawdust and I think that I don't know, I think about it every day when I'm walking in.

Joel: How does that feel?

Austin: It feels different every day. Sometimes it feels great and I'm ready to go. Sometimes it's like, man, I have a huge problem to fix. But it's the smell of progress.

Joel: That's really well put. I think that's really well put. I like that. Austin. What do you think of Sandra and Beth?

Austin: They're great. Sandra is the best instructor, teacher, mentor, whatever I've ever had. I've never had a teacher kind of focus on the human aspect of learning so much and just take the time to get to know us and our strengths. And Sandra really pushed me to do some joinery on my chair that I didn't want to do, and now it's done, and I did it well, and that's an awesome feeling. And if she just didn't care, I wouldn't have done it, and that would have been a loss.

Joel: You wouldn't have known better.

Austin: I wouldn't have known. I would have just done my dominoes and thought, that's all I can do. But she pushed me, and I think that's a great thing for an instructor to do. Like, that's one of the main jobs, and knowing when you should and when it's pushing someone too far, and she seems really great at that.

Joel: Why do you think she pushed you?

Austin: Because she believed I could do it, even though I didn't. And that's quite something.

Joel: I find when I'm in those circumstances, especially with Sandra or somebody like Sandra, the fact that they believe I can do it is almost what makes me do it.

Austin: Yeah.

Joel: I don't know if it's a combination of not wanting to let them down, or pride, but it's almost as if that is the missing ingredient to accomplishing the task. And if it wasn't for that, no matter how hard I tried, I wouldn't be able to do it.

Austin: Yeah, well, I think it's because most of us are capable of a lot more than we think we are, and you just have to try. And when Sandra or whoever pushes you to try, a lot of the time, it's going to turn out right, because it is within your capabilities, and then it just kind of bonks you on the head, and it's like, look, you can do it. It's not magic.

Joel: Last question isn't really a question. It's more of just a chance to share something we haven't talked about, to offer an opinion or put something down that I haven't asked you about. If there's something you've been thinking about, and I just haven't asked the right question to get it out of you. About the class, about your experience, about Sandra, the students, the curriculum, anything you want.

Austin: I think we covered it all. But just to summarize, everything about this program, this year has just been great, and I can't believe that there was I've lived in Victoria all my life. I never heard about this program. I'm only 24, but I wish I did it, like, years ago and yeah, it's just, yeah, that's pretty much it.

Joel: Yeah, I was thinking about that today, actually, that there should be years long waiting list for this program. The kind of experience that you get here, and like I said, I've been to a lot of different schools, and the kind of experience you get here is just so unbelievably unique.

Austin: Yeah. And I didn't expect that. I thought this was going to be, like, a woodworking school. It's been so much more than that.

Joel: Yeah, it really has. It's a really good way of phrasing it. All right, my friend. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.