Joel: All right. Caroline. how you doing?

Caroline: Hi, Joel.

Joel: Hi, Caroline.

Caroline: I am very well.

Joel: How much have you been dreading this?

Caroline: A little bit.

Joel: You're going to do great. So, to get started, what was your professional and educational background before you enrolled in Fine Furniture?

Caroline: Well, before I got here, I did a number of things. I worked at Honda for about eight years, service advisor, parts person. And then I went to school, the I decided I want to go back to school. I took a criminology diploma and then ended up working in Corrections, BC Corrections for 15 years and left that.

Joel: You and I have that in common. We both did criminal justice for 15 years.

Caroline: That's correct.

Joel: Similar jobs.

Caroline: Yeah, similar, yeah.

Joel: Dealing with similar people.

Caroline: Similar type people. For sure. It was a good career for a number of reasons, but it was also not a great career for my mental health. So I chose to well, I didn't choose to. I ended up with a workplace injury, namely PTSD. Now here I am. So I took some time off, and I'm getting retrained. And I chose woodworking because I always had a passion for woodworking and have always wanted to learn the proper way, and how to use a measuring tape, for example.

Caroline: How to use, yeah, all the tools. My dad was a woodworker. He had his own workshop growing up, so I got to work in there, use a lathe and all kinds of woodworking tools growing up. So I think I developed the interest and passion for woodworking through that.

Joel: What was it like working with your dad in his shop when you were a kid? Are those happy memories?

Caroline: Yeah, I loved it. I loved learning and doing all those things. I didn't want to play with Barbies or do all the standard girl things at the time because, I'm not a younger person. So back in those days and looking back, I really appreciated that my parents were very forward thinking in that way, and anything a boy could do, a girl can do. Nowadays is a bit different. But there's still that difficulty I think some people are challenged with. But, yeah, I really appreciated that because it gave me the drive to work in male-dominant careers, because that's what I wanted to do. Like, I didn't want to do the standard things.

Joel: Describe to me what kind of feelings you would get when you worked in your workshop with your dad. How did that make you feel?

Caroline: Well, that was so long ago now. I mean, it's like 20 plus years ago or 40 plus years ago now. 20? I wish 40 plus years ago now. But what I do like, though, is walking into a lumber yard now, or a lumber store or someplace like that. And just the smells. I love the smell of walking into the environment of a hardware store, places like that. Those are some of my favorite places to be.

Joel: You said you were passionate about wood. Why wood as opposed to metal or ceramics or glass or any other medium?

Caroline: Metal seems kind of greasy.

Joel: Very oily.

Caroline: Kind of greasy and oily. Woodworking, I don't know. I think maybe the smells, the smell of the wood as you're cutting it, or just knowing that I can learn how to build something.

Joel: Have you always been a scent oriented person? Are smells and aromas, whether it's in the kitchen or other people, is that something you've always noticed?

Caroline: Yeah.

Joel: Interesting.

Caroline: Definitely. Yeah.

Joel: How do you feel about the pipe trade?

Caroline: No comment. I think there's a place for everybody.

Joel: What kind of friendships have you made in the program, if you've made friendships?

Caroline: I think being in this program has, I've made some really, not good friends, but acquaintances and people that I enjoy hanging with and spending time with yourself and Dan and my podmates and people that I'm working closer with. But I think, I would consider all of you friends. But I think that I've also come to… coming from my background and from corrections and with PTSD in the beginning of the year, was very difficult to manage that injury while being back in a normal environment again. And it was it was a challenge, definitely, in certain regards. And I but now I feel, okay, I can be a normal, quote unquote person again. You know, where I didn't feel that way initially, because in that environment that you and I worked in. It's very different, and it's a very different reality, and I lived it for 15 plus years. And so I'm very thankful that I've had this opportunity for that reason that I've been able to kind of learn how to be normal again and be around normal people again. And I mean that literally, like, normal cause being in corrections is not a normal place to be.

Joel: So that sort of answers the question I had in mind, which is, has being in the fine furniture program helped you heal from that PTSD?

Caroline: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, I did a lot of work before that and went through a lot prior to that, but it was kind of like the final step for me, is to sort of dive into an environment where that's a school environment where it's just regular people and learning what they're learning. Because with COVID I left my job right before COVID started and happened. So that was two years of just being at home, which was great for me, actually. It worked out really well for me.

Joel: What's your best experience been in the class so far? And you can define that however you want. A relationship, a project, a particular day?

Caroline: I don't know. There's so many things that I've learned throughout the year about woodworking and joinery specifically, because I never knew any of that. I just would like any project I had to do joinery was the simplest way I can put two things together.

Joel: Just some glue and a butt joint?

Caroline: Just like making, getting, forcing a piece of wood and making it square. I mean, that's amazing to me that I've been able to learn that. Yeah, I'm older and I'm older in life, but you know what? I'm finally doing it, and I'm pretty happy with that. I remember, I don't know, walking by Sandra one day, I was like, “I just drilled my first square hole!” In the mortiser, you know It's simple stuff for a lot of people, but for me, it was something that I've always wanted to do, and I've just never had the opportunity, or it just never panned out, but Now I’m finally able to do it.

Joel: I couldn't agree more. And for me as well, some of the most pleasurable moments have been the simple things, like remembering to transfer lines instead of re-measure, or remembering to clean up with my chisel. Just little stuff that I never knew was a possibility before, but now it starts to come as second nature and makes me really happy.

Caroline: Yeah. And glue-ups aren't so stressful anymore. I mean, they're still stressful, but I remember the first glue up.

Joel: Man, I was sweating bullets!

Caroline: Yeah.

Joel: What has been your most difficult experience? And again, experience can be a day, a lesson, a relationship, whatever you want.

Caroline: Yeah. And just carrying on with what we're talking about is asking for help is a big one for me. I have always been very independent, and I hate asking people for help because I hate bothering them and this and that and the other thing. And I think just in the experience of this program, you need help from your fellow students to get something done, at glue up, for example, you need extra hands. You have to do it. And initially, it was very difficult for me to do that. Can I ask for your help? But now it's so much easier. Now we all need it at some point.

Joel: We only have two hands.

Joel: What part of the curriculum has affected you the most, and that can be positive or negative?

Caroline: I definitely struggle with the technological, like the it, the SketchUp, the things like that. Most recently, router jigs and templates. And that's kind of bending my brain a bit. So working at it, at my age, my brain is struggling a bit more than it did maybe when I was 25 or 30.

Joel: But it also keeps us young. It's good to push your brain.

Caroline: I'm staving off the dementia.

Joel: Exactly.

Caroline: For sure.

Joel: How did you feel about our discussions and our work on form versus function? What do those distinctions mean to you?

Caroline: Yeah, so form and function was all of the form and function and design and designers, and that was all very foreign to me, and I was very uncomfortable talking about it initially. Now I think I have a pretty good understanding of form and function. I still feel places like IDS West are very, I feel like a fish out of water there, and I'm very uncomfortable. It's probably not a place I would hang out even after this course. Those aren't things that I'm really interested in. But yeah, man, those were really uncomfortable moments for me, for sure.

Joel: Has the program changed, and maybe you just talked a little bit about it with form and function, but how else, I should say, has the program changed about how you think about art or the environment or the economy or trade?

Caroline: I don't know if I really can really speak to that so much. It's not something I'm really tuned into.

Joel: How do you define art?

Caroline: I think it's just a creative process for each individual. If I design a piece and I think it's art, then then so be it.

Joel: So subjective?

Caroline: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Joel: So William Morris, the guy I wrote my research paper on, he defined art as the pleasure people take in their labor, essentially. What do you think of that definition?

Caroline: To be honest, I don't know. I haven't really thought about it that much. I know that for me, being able to design something, whether it's a sketch or on SketchUp or something like that, and building it, I think being able to go through that process several times throughout the year and I don't know, I have such a great feeling of accomplishment around it whether it turns out or not. And when it does turn out kind of the way it was supposed to, it's pretty spectacular. And that's art. That's art to me, and it's creation.

Joel: Well and especially if it gives you pleasure. I mean, if you feel it more acutely, the more pleasure it gives you.

Caroline: Yeah. And I think when you love something like that, you love doing something like that, it carries out into the work and the energy for sure, the energy goes into it.

Joel: Yeah. Do you think arts and crafts are affected by economics and politics? And if so, how do you think.

Caroline: I don't know. I don't have an opinion on that. Yeah, it's not my jam.

Joel: How about if do you think a person can be a fully realized artist in this economy, where even if you want to make something, you still got to pay the rent, you still got to put gas in the truck?

Caroline: Of course. Yeah, you bet.

Joel: How so? Or why?

Caroline: Well, I mean, I think if somebody can make a living doing art and doing what they're passionate about in an art type form like building furniture, then I think that's the best way to be, don't you?

Joel: I do.

Caroline: Like, if it's something you love to do, your day goes by like nothing.

Joel: Is that what you hope to do after the program?

Caroline: I don't know. Maybe in a part time way. Got to make a living, pay the mortgage.

Joel: If you didn't have to pay the mortgage, if you had all the money in the world -

Caroline: Yeah. I'd build the biggest workshop I could.

Joel: Then what would you build in the workshop? What's the first thing you'd build?

Caroline: I would just take custom orders

Joel: What would you build for you?

Caroline: For me?

Joel: Yeah. Money is not a problem. You can use whatever material you want, no matter how bad it is for the environment, either for you or for your family or for a loved one. What's the first thing you’d build?

Caroline: I don't know. Probably a bed.

Joel: A nice bed for yourself?

Caroline: Yeah, nice king size bed. That's what I want.

Joel: What would it look like?

Caroline: I don’t know, maybe walnut, low to the ground. Just a simple frame with a headboard.

Joel: If I asked you to make something sacred to you and that sacred thing can be religious. It doesn't have to be religious. What would you make?

Caroline: Yeah. I don't know. I have no idea.

Joel: You don't know or you don't want to answer?

Caroline: No, it's not that. I don't know if I really think of it that way. I don't think of if that way. I'm spiritual, but I don't feel I don't know.

Joel: It doesn't have to be spiritual, though. Maybe it would be like a piece for your father or something to remember a family member by or something to express.

Caroline: Yeah. I'm not built like that.

Joel: If you only had three tools that you could use for woodworking for the rest of your life, what three tools would those be?

Caroline: Oh, my God. Can they be big like table saws?

Joel: It’s always a negotiation, it immediately starts with the negotiation! Whatever you want it to be.

Caroline: You need more than three tools, Joel!

Joel: You only got three, Caroline!

Caroline: If I only have three tools, it'd have to be hand tools, like carving chisels and carving knives. Ruler.

Joel: I think I know the answer, but what sensual memory from the shop do you think will stay with you the longest?

Caroline: Yeah, you know what? I love the sound of the handsanding.

Joel: I was guessing I was going to guess the smell.

Caroline: No.

Joel: Oh, really?

Caroline: No. The hand sanding.

Joel: Yeah.

Caroline: I love that. You get into that rhythm and it just I don't know, there's something about it. It's like…

Joel: Very gratifying.

Caroline: Yeah. You know you're doing it properly. Right.

Joel: Instant feedback.

Caroline: There's so much that I've learned. It's just one simple thing, but it's very, because Coco and I every time I'm starting to do that, he's, like, behind me going…

Joel: That's a good answer. I haven't thought about that. That's a good answer. What do you think of Sandra and Beth?

Caroline: I think they are fantastic.

Joel: What is fantastic?

Caroline: They're very kind, and they go out of their way to help you and to learn. And I think we work closely, more closely with Sandra. I think she cares a lot, and she wants to make sure that we have gotten the education that we're supposed to get, and she's sending us out into the world, most of us, that we have the necessary skills. And she just wants to make sure that those things happen. And I think they're just, I think Sandra's a very genuine person and very, I don't know what else to say about that. I think that's about it. Beth same. I mean, they have a good sense of humor, both of them, especially with this crowd. She puts up with us

Joel: And it's a lot. So last question is not really a question. It's just more of an opportunity for you to add anything, contribute anything that I’ve missed, put down some final thoughts, anything you want to touch on as part of this project. Maybe there was an answer you had in your mind to a question I never asked or something you were hoping to come up?

Caroline: No, let me consult my notes here. I don't think so. I think just getting back to the class and the cohesiveness of the group and how we've all kind of become a family, and Sandra alluded to that at the beginning of the course, and we spend a lot of time together, and you get to know each other a little bit, some more so than others. But I think we're a really good group. And I think going back to Sandra, she has created the atmosphere and does create the atmosphere of that cohesiveness and that we're here to look out for each other and help each other out and that kind of thing, and it shows. And I think people are generally happy with the class, with the curriculum.

Joel: I couldn't agree more. I think it's a very special environment that Sandra and Beth have created. Yeah, it's a great class. I mean, the bones are there. We got a great space. We have great tools.

Caroline: But there's an energy. There's something that's just different about other classes, maybe.

Joel: Yeah. I mean, I've been in school half my life, and I completely agree that Sandra's method and her demeanor are very unique and very refreshing.

Caroline: Yeah. Yes, definitely. Refreshing is a good word, and I very much like how she is inclusive in her language and how she makes sure that we don't get out of hand with joking and things like that and just keeps things comfortable for everybody. And I think that's very important. I do. 100%.

Joel: Thank you, my friend.

Caroline: Thank you.

Joel: Appreciate it. Hope this wasn't too painful.

Caroline: That was okay.