Joel: All right. Let’s roll tape. Connor, buddy, how you doing?

Connor: I'm doing well, Joel.

Joel: Connor. The Buddha.

Connor: The Buddha? Yeah, as you say.

Joel: How does that make you feel that I call you the Buddha?

Connor: It's kind of funny. I find it interesting.

Joel: What do you find interesting about it?

Connor: I think that you perceive me as more calm than I perceive myself.

Joel: You do come across as very calm and cool and collected.

Connor: Yeah, I get that.

Joel: Do you not feel that way?

Connor: Not all the time. I think even my friends and people outside of the program and at work and things, they think I'm so calm, but there's definitely some inner chaos at points and a lot of misdirection and working things out. But I don't know, I guess I don't get worked up about too many things.

Joel: What is that inner chaos about? Is it about work? Is it about personal stuff? About everything?

Connor: Yeah, I guess it's all influential. Probably a mix of just like, not knowing what to do or feeling stressed about pulling something off or, yeah.

Joel: Have you felt that in the last eight months in the program?

Connor: Oh, definitely. Yeah.

Joel: When have you felt that the most?

Connor: Learning the CNC probably was the was a big one, but also like even getting into chair design. And I struggled with that, actually just questioning whether I would be able to pull it off and just get my ideas on paper and be able to translate it into an object.

Joel: How's the chair going?

Connor: I feel good about it now. It was slow going. I felt like it took a long time in the design process. And trying to formulate an idea and put it in the computer, and I was struggling with that and then ended up with something that I didn't didn't really like. So I backtracked and worked through it, but now that it's taking shape and it's downstairs and I have a lot of it worked out, I'm feeling a lot better about it.

Joel: A lot more Buddha-like?

Connor: Yeah, I guess so.

Joel: What did you do, Connor, before find furniture? In terms of education? In terms of work experience?

Connor: In terms of education, I graduated high school and that was it. Even like I took a year of high school, I was just working on job sites and earned school credits through that. And then out of high school, I just started working as a carpenter and tried a lot of different things. Initially I was working for one guy and I was his only employee, and we would just go around and do renovations. It's like pretty rural Ontario. So we just kind of said yes to everything and work in these old houses and, I don’t know I got kind of tired of that after a couple of years. And then I started timber framing. There's a timber framer in my hometown and so I did that for a couple of years and then hit the road I wanted to travel. And so I bought an old van, moved into it, and just went out to Banff and lived in the Rockies for a while and first year there, just worked a random seasonal job, worked in a gear store. Just like, selling outdoor gear and stuff and then got back into carpentry after some time away and yeah, worked for a builder there for around two years, I think, and started working on these really interesting projects. Like it was high-end residential homes. We had a couple of projects where we would build two new restaurants in Banff that were architecturally designed and very beautiful. And so I was doing a lot of the finishing work in there and I really liked that. I really liked sort of building, like being more creatively challenged while I build, but also found it fascinating just how people would design these things and how to create a building with intention and have an idea developed into an interior space. I really like that.

Joel: Have you always wanted to make a living with your hands, make a living in a trade?

Connor: Not necessarily. I felt it was kind of my only option, like getting out of school.

Joel: Why did you think that was your only option?

Connor: Because I didn't know what else to do. My grandpa was a carpenter and I worked with him kind of through my teenage years, so I always had a bit of experience in working on farms and things just kind of always being handy. Yeah, a lot of the opportunities, my first opportunities came through my grandpa, just his friends looking for summer help. So through high school and work for them. And I felt like it was a skill set that I had and it was an asset that I had to offer. And I never really felt that school would be an option. And even if it was, I didn't know what to study. I didn't really have any other interest that I could pursue.

Joel: You grew up on a farm, right?

Connor: I didn't grow up on a farm. I grew up in a farm town.

Joel: Farm town?

Connor: Yeah.

Joel: Why did you enroll in fine furniture program? Was it that experience in Banff?

Connor: Yeah, it was feeling that. And at the time, I was working for myself, like I was subcontracting for other builders, and it was sort of like a means to an end. It was a way to make a living and a way to go and be able to travel and go on adventures and have fun. But it was never really what I saw myself doing long term, and I kind of wanted to refine my skills a bit. I felt like I was doing a lot of carpentry work and doing pretty well at it, but I knew there was more to it and bring it back to the architecture of how to create a product or create an item with intention and be able to pull it off. And I enjoyed working for myself, but I didn't see myself building a construction company that would go and build homes. I saw myself more as, like, a creative person and wanted to explore that a little bit.

Joel: What do you mean by building something with intention?

Connor: I think being able to have an idea or offer something to somebody that's more than just like an Ikea dining table or something. I think my favorite things that I own or that I've seen are just things that are made, like, by an artist, whether it's art or music or like a piece of furniture or even a building that was an idea at some point. It wasn't just an arbitrary assembly of pieces. I think there's something more to that.

Joel: Why, by enrolling in fine furniture at least, did you choose wood as a medium to pursue as opposed to metalworking or ceramics?

Connor: I guess I have the background in it, and I've always enjoyed it. And I actually had tried, I took a course building, like, ceramics one winter.

Joel: How do you build ceramics?

Connor: Well, I just like, you throw clay on the wheel and you make mugs. So it was like, pay a couple hundred bucks and go and take night courses. And I was so bad at it. And I'm just such a messy worker as well. Like, you'd see all the other workstations and then mine and wonder.

Joel: So you at clay is similar to me at woodworking?

Connor: I guess so, yeah. I didn't get it. I felt like there were people in the course who were also new to it, and they're making these incredible vases and beautiful bowls and things and I try to make a bowl and it would end up a mug and I'd try to make a mug and it'd be a bowl and just fucking clay everywhere.

Joel: I have to admit my mind struggles with the idea of you trying and failing to make something with your hands. It's hard for me to wrap my head around that.

Connor: No, I don't know. It was a good experience but I found that it wasn't what I really had to offer.

Joel: Yeah. What do you think you have to offer that's different from what other people have to offer?

Connor: That's the question, isn't it? I don't know. I don't think I have that perspective quite yet at this point. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can and explore what I am good at and the things I'm not so good at and lean into my strengths and accommodate for some weaknesses.

Joel: What are your strengths?

Connor: I think that strength would be just my hand skills are good. I think I'm pretty skilled on the tools and can make things well and efficiently and I'm trying to be more creative in design process and trying to accommodate the needs of people. But I'm still exploring that and I'm still figuring out what that's all about.

Joel: What are your weaknesses?

Connor: Probably organization and, yeah. Focusing on things that I find mundane.

Joel: Very controversial question in this history, how do you feel about the pipe trades?

Connor: Pipe trades? I don't have much an opinion. I mean, it takes a village.

Joel: It does take a village. Especially when you have to go to the bathroom.

Connor: Yeah. But yeah, aside from the consistent grinding when we have the door open, they keep to themselves.

Joel: How do you feel about the friendships you've made in the fine furniture program? Assuming you have made friendships, maybe you haven't.

Connor: Yeah, I've really enjoyed that. One thing about the program I tell everyone is that it's just such a diverse crowd of people and yeah. You speak to anyone down there on the floor and they've come like they're at all different places in life, come from different backgrounds, they're going different places and it's just sort of a place where all these sort of unlikely people have come and can connect over a singular topic. It's like woodworking like design. You're building a chair. And I've always found that so interesting and down on my end. Like I have Nick and Leo who is like total opposites as people. But us three in our little bench, we just get along so well and it's a really great dynamic down there. Yeah.

Joel: These interviews, you're only the third interview, but even these three interviews have really caused me to reflect and appreciate what you said about the diversity of our class. When you look at a picture of our class, it doesn't look that diverse. But I would never be in a room. Never say never. The chances are slim to none I would be in a room interviewing you or Sinead or Dustin, but for this class, and not just interviewing, but forming friendships and talking and bullshitting and just hanging out every day for ten months, I would have never had the opportunity to probably be with a person like you, but for that class. And that has really made me appreciate this class even deeper than I thought I already did.

Connor: Yeah, I agree. And like Leo, who, I mean, you haven't interviewed yet, but.

Joel: Oh, I can't wait for that interview.

Connor: He’s such a fascinating person. And there's no one else you'll meet like him. And to get to know him at the depth I have over the last eight or nine months, it's been incredible. And he certainly has some stories to tell.

Joel: I can't wait. He's told me a couple. I'm curious to see what he lets me record. What do you think your best experience has been in the class so far? And that can be a project, a relationship, a day, anything.

Connor: I enjoyed our wall-hung cabinet project. That cherry cabinet.

Joel: Yeah.

Connor: I went in a different direction than Sandra intended, but she gave me a lot of space on that, and I really felt ready to design my own piece. And so I took that on, but still kept all of the learning outcomes. And I really enjoyed just all the joinery and kind of the time we took to create that cabinet.

Joel: What has been your most challenging or, I don't know, least pleasurable experience in the class? And again, project, day, anything.

Connor: Since I made my cabinet different than everyone else's I had to design my own CNC file for the top. And I really wanted to do it because I wanted to learn the CNC. But I was so out of my element, and it was like, I think, four days of trial and error and plugging it in, trying things again. And I was so exhausted. Yeah, I was pretty frustrated, but just worked through it.

Joel: Did it come out eventually the way you wanted it to?

Connor: It did, yeah, actually. And it was rewarding.

Joel: So maybe try and describe that feeling a little bit more. So those four days was your most frustrating experience in the class. What did that feel like at the end of those four days when you finally were able to make what you've been trying so hard to make?

Connor: It was such a relief. I remember probably day two or day three, my attitude was just, I can just do this by hand in an hour and just have it done, but just sticking with it and yeah, just kind of defining my own learning outcomes of this is something that's important, and I want to stick it out.

Joel: Why did you stick it out and instead of just throwing in the towel and do it by hand?

Connor: Because I wanted to, I guess.

Joel: Why did you want to?

Connor: I just wanted to learn more about that. I find when I do challenge myself like, that, you're just so willing to give up. Like, it would just be so easy to just toss it in and say, you can't do it, and there's a way that's better for me. But then that's where you grow, and that's where you find out what you can and can't do. I think it's important to kind of push your limits and know where they are, at least. And in that, you learn a lot about yourself and about how you learn.

Joel: What part of the curriculum has affected you the most, whether it's made you the happiest, the most frustrated. You already talked about the top on the wall hung cabinet, but is there any other part of the curriculum besides that that really either positively or negatively, really struck at you? It could have been a lesson. It could be a concept.

Connor: I've enjoyed the time we took in the fall to learn SketchUp in CAD design. I felt that was really worthwhile and just being able to translate ideas into that software and create something and show it to other people, and there's just so much you can do with that. And that was really valuable for me.

Joel: We talk a lot in class about form versus function or if there is even that juxtaposition of verses, why does it have to be verses? What do those concepts mean to you? And how, if at all, has the class changed that for you?

Connor: I actually found that assignment because we did the bookend, one form, one function, and I found it really fascinating how people understood it for themselves.

Joel: Very subjective, right?

Connor: It is, yeah. And it's a continuum of, like, I don't know, where do you how do you see objects, in a way? And I like the challenge for me is, like, to make something functional. Like, okay, define its purpose, design how you want it to function, and then minimize it. Take everything away until it doesn't work, and then add that one more thing back and come up with an object. And I feel like I got a lot of shit from mine because mine looked good, my function bookend. But I also feel that you can make something that's strictly functional without sacrificing craftsmanship and how a lot of people, they were just, like, screws jammed in things, and they weren't aesthetically pleasing. And I feel, anyways, that you can have something that's strictly functional and visually striking as well.

Joel: Interesting. If you invest the time or energy to make it visually striking, does that not add something unnecessary to the function, though?

Connor: I guess that's the continuum thing, is how far you take it. But I think that breaking your edges on a sharp corner makes it look cleaner, of course, but it also makes it more softer to handle and nicer all around. I think that's kind of a baseline of craftsmanship is to just finish things and to put a coat of oil on it. I mean, does it really change the function of a bookend? Not necessarily, but in terms of a craft, you tend to finish the wood. Like you don't have to put finish on a table, but it's wise to.

Joel: Has this class altered the way you think about craft?

Connor: I think it has, yeah. A lot of us have talked about just when we're talking about design, informant, function around that time, the curriculum. There are a lot of conversations about perceiving the world and no, I think everything, all the products that we have are made with some sort of intention and just kind of like, see behind the curtain. I mean, as a designer and how they translated their ideas and their thoughts into objects that we use every day certainly adds the depth to the human experience, I think. Just be really fun.

Joel: Has the class changed how you view art?

Connor: I think art in the medium of furniture, yes. I think we've all developed a bit more of an eye for good or poor craftsmanship and how I interpret that, but in terms of other art, maybe not as much.

Joel: So I did my research paper on William Morris, who is one of the founders of the Arts and Crafts movement in Britain in the 19th century, also a flaming socialist, and he defines art as the pleasure people take in their labor. How do you feel about that definition of art?

Connor: I think there's merit to that. And sometimes I also feel that if things aren't fun or enjoyable or if you're not going to learn anything from them, they're probably not worth doing. In terms of objects, I think that does translate well through someone enjoying their time and knowing what they're doing for someone who might be chaotic and not care.

Joel: Would you add or subtract anything from that definition of art? How would you personally define art?

Connor: I don't know. Yeah, I don't have an opinion on that. Yeah.

Joel: Is it something you know when you see.

Connor: I think objectively, yes. Like, to my own personal taste I see something I like I considerate it art, but I don't think I can suggest what's art to some and not to others.

Joel: Why not? Now, let me ask you, do you feel like you can't suggest that or you shouldn't suggest that?

Connor: I feel like I shouldn't. Yeah.

Joel: Because I feel like you could. You're an artist, you are steeped in trade and art. So why don't you think you should take a position on what is and is not art?

Connor: Because I think I can't be an expert in everything.

Joel: You don't have to be an expert, but why are you hesitant to even offer your opinion?

Connor: I mean, I think if my opinion is educated, then, yeah, I think it's meant to be offered, but, I don’t know drawn a blank here, Joel.

Joel: Yeah. Can I ask you another couple questions on this topic?

Connor: Yeah.

Joel: What do you mean when you say if it's educated?

Connor: I think that people generally think they have like, they show they have a right to an opinion, but I think a lot of times they lack the self awareness of where their opinion actually matters.

Joel: Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is, do you feel like you could only offer an opinion about what is or is not art if you had a degree in art history or you were recognized as an expert in art? Is it a qualification that you feel like you're lacking? Is that why you're uncomfortable offering an opinion, or are you just being polite Connor?

Connor: I think I'm just being polite. I think if someone asked me an opinion on photograph, I know I've done enough photography. I can sort of judge a photograph based on many things, but terms of, I don't know, an art form that I'm not practiced in, I mean, it's fine to have an opinion, but I don't think that to offer advice or anything like that.

Joel: Have you been I assume you've been to many museums.

Connor: A few, yeah. Not tons.

Joel: What goes through your mind when you go to a museum and you see sculpture or an oil painting, something that's done in a medium that you don't have experience in? How do you evaluate what you're looking at?

Connor: I guess I would wander through and see what's caught my attention. If there's five sculptures, I'd probably go to one that I find the most interesting and observe it, and likely the same for a painting too. Whether it's the content that's interesting or the colors or the arrangement, I think I would observe it like that.

Joel: Are arts and crafts affected by politics and economics?

Connor: Yeah, I believe so.

Joel: How so?

Connor: I mean, Peter said this early on in the program, and I wrote it down, but he said, “Furniture trends are influenced by social movements more than anything else,” and I think that rings true in history. And even looking around now, sort of the change in or the rise of certain furniture styles has been influenced by global change, economics, industry and yeah, I think what people want changes in time as well, so it's certainly influenced by politics and economics.

Joel: Do you think a person can be a fully realized artist? And by fully realized, I mean happy in what they're doing, making a genuine effort to create the kind of art that they want to create? Do you think a person can be that way in this current economic, political setup in Canadian capitalism in the 21st century?

Connor: I think eventually. It takes a lifetime. But I think in the pursuit of art or being an artist, it takes so much time to discover your voice or to perfect your craft and to play with what works and what doesn't work. I'm only 25, so I don't really know.

Joel: But I guess what I'm getting at as well is do you think that the need to make money or the need to worry about environmental impact or consumer tastes or changing trends, do you think that that can affect your ability to be the best artistic version of yourself that you could be?

Connor: Yeah, I believe so. I think all that affects an artist in one way or another. Yeah.

Joel: What would be the first thing you would make if you had no money issues and if you didn't have to worry about the environment? If you wanted to make a 50 foot sculpture out of the world's most toxic metal, you could. What would be the first thing you could make?

Connor: I would build a house. I'd build my own little house somewhere, ideally with a view, but can't be picky.

Joel: Can you describe that house for me?

Connor: Probably, like, not extravagant, just like maybe 1200 sqft or something. Like just a nice kitchen area and open concept. Lots of natural light and yeah, just well built. Like, build all the doors, all the windows. Just I know if I had the time to do it myself, I would yeah, just just make it my own little abode.

Joel: So there's lots of 1200 square foot houses with open concept kitchens. What would make that house Connor's house?

Connor: I think just the level of intention and detail that I would put into it. I try to make it my own style and just experiment and have fun. Yeah, just make it how I would like it.

Joel: What is your style?

Connor: It's a great question, Joel. I don't know.

Joel: But something comes to mind. I don't see you doing a lot of metal incorporation with your wood. There's some things you do and there's some things you don't do.

Connor: Yeah, I guess I cater more to mid century trends just because of the simplicity and sort of organic shapes and things like that.

Joel: You're very good at organic shapes.

Connor: Thank you. Yeah. And so mid century something. Yeah. The rest to be defined.

Joel: Besides the house you just described, maybe that would be your answer, but if that's your answer, maybe pick something else. If I asked you to make something sacred to you and that could be I don't know if you're religious or not. It doesn't have to be religious. For some people, their relationship is sacred or nature is sacred. But if I asked for you to make something sacred, sacred to you, what would you make?

Connor: I've been thinking recently of building a guitar. Like, I think just an electric guitar to start, but I think it would be great to build my own acoustic guitar at some point. I just think they carry so much character throughout their lives.

Joel: Do you play guitar?

Connor: I do, yeah.

Joel: I didn't know that.

Connor: I played since high school and yeah, I remember a friend of mine, I'd been playing for a couple of years, and she had this old, like, Gibson jumbo like, acoustic guitar. And it was her grandmother's, who she didn't know personally, but she toured with Neil Young, like, in the 1970s. It came down through the generations. And she had it, and I was playing it and it just had so much voice and just, like, had all these dings from being on the road. But it played so well and sounded so beautiful and yeah. I just think it'd be amazing to make something like that that I could play for my life and then some and just have it carry on. I think as those age, they become sacred.

Joel: What kind of music do you play? You're a rock guy? A jazz guy?

Connor: Probably rock roots, I would say when I was learning music in high school, I loved Led Zeppelin. I really enjoyed Jimmy Page's guitar playing and so I played a lot of that and then sort of got into more like, folk music and finger style guitar. I bounce around. I just explore what I find sounds nice to me. I don't write original music. I just play what I like to hear.

Joel: You ever tried to write music?

Connor: I have with friends and jamming and things like that. And a lot of my friends are musicians and I see how they work, and I'm not that musically creative. I think I have an ear for it and I can play it, but in terms of coming up with my own, I kind of have a lot of respect for people who do it. But I think my creative strengths lie in another medium.

Joel: If you had to pick three woodworking tools and you could only use those three tools for the rest of your life, what would they be?

Connor: Yeah, I thought of this. I think it would be like a Ryoba Japanese saw. You know, with, like, the cross cut and the rip cut. They’re pretty pretty versatile. Probably a hand plane. And will we accept, like, a set of chisels and mallet as one item?

Joel: Seems to be a very controversial, it can be whatever you want it to be.

Connor: You buy them as one.

Joel: You buy them as one. So chisels and a mallet?

Connor: Yeah, you can do a lot.

Joel: Why those three? Are they the most versatile?

Connor: They're probably the ones you use the most. Yeah, I think if you were to reach for something, it'd be one of those three.

Joel: Yeah. I am shocked at how, I mean, you knew this with my background I did not. How often I reach for a chisel, and I should probably reach for it more. If anything, I should get better at chiseling.

Connor: Yeah, they're great.

Joel: What sensual memory do you think will stay with you the longest that you experienced in the fine furniture program? A sight, a smell, a sound, a taste? Anything.

Connor: I know, like, from working on job sites, I see how people fuck things up from time to time and that typically stays with me. I remember. One time, one of my coworkers was using a router, and he didn't put the bit in tight enough, and it dropped out and hit him in the chest. And he was fine, but he left a little mark or whatever. And so anytime I tighten up a router bit, I think that. But I think, honestly, anytime I use a feather board behind the table saw blade, I'm going to think about when you pulled it back through the blade and just, like, obliterated into all of its pieces and hit the wall.

Joel: I am honored that the memory that's going to stick with you the longest is me.

Connor: It's pretty funny.

Joel: Maybe describe a little bit more in detail that incident, because it was pretty funny.I think we should get that into the history.

Connor: I missed kind of what was leading up to that. But I heard the noise, and I saw Joel standing there, and behind him in the air were all the fingers of a feather board, not of him. He was fine, which is great, but everything just, like, flew past the table saw in like a new thousand pieces. It was incredible.

Joel: Yeah, it was one of my better moments, and I've had a lot of catastrophes in this class but that definitely might be my greatest catastrophe.

Connor: Yeah.

Joel: Tell me your impressions and thoughts of Sandra and Beth after having spent eight months being taught by them.

Connor: My initial thoughts are I don't know how they do it. I don't know how Sandra has the capacity for putting up with all of us and marking and instructing, and it just must be so much for her and Beth, too. She does so much around the shop and very just quietly working away at many things. I wish there were two of both of them. I feel like they could benefit from that and us as well. But, yeah, I took the course because Sandra was teaching it. I remember when I was looking into doing something like this, I saw she was teaching it, and I liked her demeanor and kind of saw what she'd done in the past. I thought she had a lot to offer.

Joel: How did you see what she'd done in the past?

Connor: I found her website, and it's kind of limited of her past projects, but I sort of liked her aesthetic. And yeah, just her demeanor was really attractive. I think from working in the trades, it's very much like a boys club, and I definitely didn't want that. And I came to visit this time last year, maybe a bit earlier, and I wanted to check out the shop and the campus and just see what it was like. So I was in Victoria. I came to check it out, and yeah, I just liked the diversity of people. And Sandra was super nice, very knowledgeable and welcoming. I think from, like, day one, we all just really adored who she was and look forward to having her as a mentor.

Joel: It's interesting. So far, I've interviewed two men and one woman, and everybody, all three of you, and I agree with this, have immediately upon being asked that question, mentioned how nice it is that Sandra and Beth are the opposite of that sort of toxic, masculine boys club atmosphere.

Connor: Oh, yeah. And it's it's time for that, and it's time to welcome new voices into the trades and and welcome creative people in the trades. Because I think just sort of the working culture, I've put up with it for long enough, but, yeah, for a lot of people, it's a barrier to entry.

Joel: It's interesting and refreshing that men male students feel that way, too, I think. Why do you think that that so far, like anecdotally like I said, there's only been three of you, but why do you think so far the male students have felt that strongly about the positive, nontoxic atmosphere that Sandra and Beth create here, as opposed to what sometimes conventionally, like you said you get in the trades?

Connor: I think maybe just being aware of the general social atmosphere, I mean, not only happening in the trades, but in the world of welcoming female voices and diversity in all aspects of life. And I'm sure Dustin spoke of it similarly. And I just think it's time to allow that space for women and people of color to not feel discriminated and actually feel encouraged to contribute a verse or to contribute something into a trade. I really value that when I was looking at the course. And she's definitely come through with her ability to build people up and to help them kind of explore what means most to them.

Joel: I think it also goes back to something else you said earlier when you're speaking about the diversity of the trades and how that's important and is to elevate other voices. That's a big part of what I think makes this class so interesting. It would be a lot less interesting and fun if there were 17 of us who were the same gender and the same age and the same background and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it is, for me, at least, purposefully lifting up and empowering people who weren't previously empowered, whether it is to teach the class or to take the class, that makes it more interesting for all of us.

Connor: Yeah, of course. And it's powerful to the individuals getting into that, and I think it's powerful to the trade and to the future of craft to celebrate it as something for everyone. Yeah. I definitely acknowledge the weight that Sandra and Beth contribute to the development of that for everyone.

Joel: Hear hear! Last question is not really a question. It's more of an opportunity for you to add anything, contribute anything, remark on anything that I haven't touched on. Is there something in the back of your head that you've been wanting to talk about? I haven't asked the right question to get it out of you. An aspect of class, of your development, friendships, projects, anything that you just want to put down and remember.

Connor: I mean, you've kind of brushed on everything. I think you've done a very good job. But I would say, like, for anyone who's listening, who might be thinking of taking the class or is in it or even in their own practices, whether it be woodworking or any type of art or medium of their own is just to do it on your own terms and to define your own learning outcomes and really give yourself space to find out what means. And definitely give yourself permission to be creative and to think for yourself, because I think that will get you pretty far.

Joel: Amen. Thank you, brother. Appreciate it.

Connor: Thanks, Joel.