Joel: All right. Dan the man. How's life?

Dan: Good. Working hard on my chair.

Joel: Good. How's the chair going?

Dan: Good. To be honest with you, it's been a very up and down experience.

Joel: Why?

Dan: You start the beginning being super stoked and excited. You got this design that you've spent time coming up with and then you get into it and it's like two weeks in, you're already two weeks behind. But yeah, no, but then you hit road bumps and then I think it's kind of fun doing this now after the ten months, because you think “how do I want to solve this problem?” Sometimes I check in with Sandra just to really make sure I'm not going to really screw it up.

Joel: Smart.

Dan: Yeah.

Joel: So what was your background before Find Furniture? Either professional or educational or both?

Dan: I was in restaurants for 15 years, man.

Joel: That’s a lot of time. But you’re young. How old are you?

Dan: Yeah, I literally ran out of high school. I'm 33. I'll be 34 in October. So I'm still pretty young, relatively. It depends who you talk to. Some kids think I'm pretty freaking old, but yeah, no, I got out of high school and just got a job at, to be honest with you, I got a job at a Save-On as a cashier, and two weeks into it hurt my back just lifting two things of pop. It's such a weak-feeling moment, just twisted weird, and I heard an audible pop and anyways, they were like, yeah, you got to be on light duty. So they put me on stocking shelves at seven in the morning and I was like, screw that. So across the street was a Milestone. So just went over and applied to be a host and they hired me and yeah, did that, and I was good at it, so I kept going through the thing, but eventually there was a point where I was burnt out and wasn't recognizing it. And then COVID hit and that was not a fun experience in the restaurant industry. There's a lot of nice people out there, but I think yeah, it was just a sign I needed to do something else.

Joel: Why did you pick this as the something else? I mean, there's a million other things you could have done.

Dan: Yeah, I couldn't give you a definitive I don't think I have one thing that I'm like, this is the passion thing that I'm going to do for the rest of my life. I think that those people are far and few in between and they're lucky, but I don't know. In the last year or two before kind of leaving restaurants, I'd done a few little projects around the house building. I made like, a whole false wall to cut our kitchen off so that I could have a desk on the other side and just nothing that I would send off to Find Furniture to be like, hey, you guys need to print this, but I don't know, it was this or computer IT kind of what I nailed it down to, and I decided, computer IT wouldn't be the, I could do this. Gain at least a really cool hobby. And if I hated it as a job, I could go to take the computer programming courses then or whatever, IT stuff, but I don't want to be sitting in front of a computer twenty-four-seven. And I do enjoy video gaming in my spare time, so I don't want to be trapped in front of the screen all day.

Joel: So what's the final verdict now that we're two weeks from graduating?

Dan: I'm very happy I did it.

Joel: Is this something you're going to do professionally?

Dan: Yeah, at least for the beginning, to see if I can get a career going. I had a job before at Vintage Woodworks. They were nice enough to hire me on as a glazer with no previous experience, but that was a fun experience. Just kind of seeing day to day what people do in a high volume situation and then, yeah, they're taking me back as a joiner now. So they've waited ten months for my return.

Joel: That's great.

Dan: Yeah.

Joel: What kind? Well, before I ask that question…You say you couldn't really give me a definitive answer about why you joined the program, but why? Why would - it could have been metal, it could have been ceramics. I mean, if you want to make stuff, if you want to develop your trade, there's still a lot of other things besides wood.

Dan: I think if you'd asked me at the beginning of the program, I couldn't have put it into words for you, but now, having kind of gone through the whole process and learning a lot, I would say, I don't know, just something. I mean, you look at a piece of wood furniture like, my grandfather built his own house in Portal Albernie, and I don't know, the way that it can be shaped is easier than some other things, but also not because of the movement of it. And every piece of wood has its own feel, especially hardwoods. But yeah, I don't know. I really enjoy seeing wood furniture in my place and wood objects. I don't know, it has a warmth to it that I don't think you get from metals and stuff by themselves. I think that they can accent each other well.

Joel: Growing up, did your mom or dad or anybody else in your family have any sort of, were they crafty? Were they handsy? Were they making stuff?

Dan: No. My mom and my stepdad, who I mainly grew up with were, my mom was a police officer and my dad's a criminologist. So kind of way out there thing, comparatively. And neither of them is really that handy with that stuff. I mean, they're not idiots, and if they read something, they could paint a room. But nobody in my life at the time that I was around, built things. I did find out a couple of months ago that my dad made a really sick stool in high school, actually, that my nona still has. But no, I wasn't really exposed to anyone directly. Yeah.

Joel: What kind of relationships, if any, have you built over the last ten months in the program? Acquaintances? Friendships?

Dan: I'd say friendships. I'm bad at, when you get out of here, you have your normal life to get back to. So in some ways it's kind of like a job that way, but I don't know. I'd say, we started with 18 people in the program, and we're finishing with 17 plus one from COVID Times. But I would say 99% of the people I've had genuine moments with and at least some sort of connections and learned a lot about who they are. Whether or not we'll see each other after the program, it's not like a slight to them or myself. It's just kind of reality, but seeing perspectives all the way from someone like Eric, who's very young, comparative to most people in the program, and all the way up to Lesley, who's here for her own personal reasons and just to gain kind of a hobbyist level skill, but still giving it their all. Nobody here feels like they came in to just phone it in. Yeah, but just seeing everybody's different life stories and where they came from and yeah. Quite a spectrum of people that we have, and everybody's a good person. I think it's a good example of people just put all the bullshit to the side. Life can be pretty good on average.

Joel: I agree. What's been your best experience in the class? And experience can be however you define it. A project, a homework assignment, a lecture, a particular day in the shop, anything.

Dan: Best experience? I don't know, man. It's hard to narrow it down always to one. One of the best would be, I don't know, just I think the first moment, I think when we finished our tall cabinet or the Euro cabinets, that was a moment where I felt really proud of the thing I'd built. The Shaker table was pretty complex, but I think it felt drawn out enough that by the time I was done, I kind of had a moment where I was like, oh, thank God that's over. But now I look at it and it's just I don't know, seeing these things in my house now and being used, it's pretty rewarding. And just seeing it now with fresher eyes, as opposed to when I just finished it and can see every little mistake, I'm like, that's some pretty nice stuff I made. Yeah.

Joel: It's amazing how far you come.

Dan: Right? And seeing other people's reactions. I think you get used to people when you show them stuff through your daily life and, “Oh, look at this thing I'm excited about.” They're like, “Oh, cool.” But seeing people's genuine, over-the-top reactions to some of the things I made in person was very rewarding. Yeah.

Joel: How does that feel? If you can elaborate a little bit more, because I've had that same experience, because there are no artists or trades people or handy people in my family either. And so when I've started to show my family what I've made, they're just blown away. How does that make you feel when you show your family or your partner what you've made and they're just, like you said, over the moon?

Dan: Yeah. I feel pretty badass. Sandra does a very good job of leading us through the program pretty fast. But also you learn each step, and you get to this point where I look back at where we started, and I'm like that first month when we were doing things. I look at now that, I'm I guess I just see the growth in myself with the reactions of them, because some of them ask me, “How did you do that?” I almost feel like I'm being rude when I explain it to them, because I feel like I'm being like, “Well, it's just a simple process of blah, blah, blah.” But it's yeah. I don't know, it's just yeah. Seeing where we came from to where we are now and then seeing people who haven't had that, it's not magic, but kind of the same level of, if you don't know, it's just so much more impressive, right? And doesn't take any of the luster away. But when you tell people what you did to get there, especially when some of the things we did completely by hand, it's like, oh, jeez, you did that by hand? Yeah, I did. And I don't know, just something about doing things that you yourself made, there's no substitute for it. Yeah.

Joel: What's been your most frustrating or dispiriting experience in the last ten months?

Dan: When you feel like you have done everything you can to prepare for a certain moment in the build, like, you do test cuts or practice, blah, blah, blah over and over.

Joel: And it all goes to shit.

Dan: And then it doesn't matter. You can practice as much as you want, and then you get in the moment and something either you didn't account for. Yeah, it could be-

Joel: Are you thinking of any particular moment?

Dan: I mean, the first one I can think of is, tenons come to mind in general-

Joel: When we did the stools?

Dan: When we first did the stools, and then for the next few projects, anytime we had to do tenons, I always just seemed to have this moment of, I think I was just so upset from the first time that I kept feeling like I was going back to an ex or something. But then I have tenons on this project, and I realized a lot of it is just getting out of your own head and taking that moment. Okay. Have I made sure that this is what I need to be doing and the way to do it? And it's gone much smoother. It's funny when you do screw something up and then you go to do it, redo it again in, I find. Yeah. I constantly have had to remind myself over and over, like, we're here to learn. This is school, I think. Yeah, I'm 33. But that doesn't mean that I think especially when you're starting a new whole new thing that I've never done before, I need to constantly remind myself I'm here to learn, and part of learning is making mistakes, and that's okay.

Joel: It's very hard for me. I can't stand not being good at something, and it was very hard for me coming into this to just, and I'm not trying to be self-deprecating, but I don't have a natural talent for this. And so it was very hard for me to not be good at this from the beginning. Did you have that experience?

Dan: Yeah. I mean, maybe not as profoundly as yours, but I've had moments where-

Joel: Maybe you didn't suck as bad as I did.

Dan: No, I think it's all perspective. I probably feel like I sucked as much as you did, but I don't think either of us have sucked as much as we think we did.

Joel: That's a good point.

Dan: It's also about not comparing yourself to others, which is hard to do in a place like this where you have somebody. Some of the people have come here with years and years of experience, and they're making beautiful things from the first day, and it's like, crap. why didn’t mine turn out that way? But it's because just different skill levels and also you sorry, what was the question?

Joel: It's hard to not be good at something.

Dan: Yeah.

Joel: It's hard to not sort of get down on yourself.

Dan: I think a lot of the problem with this, for people like you and me at least, is I might understand something on an intellectual level, but then application of that knowledge, and especially when you're doing something with your hands and using tools that are predictable but have some variance built into them, it can be very soul crushing when you think you understood something and it doesn't turn out. Yeah.

Joel: What part of the curriculum has affected you the most? In 20 years, when you think back on fine furniture, what's going to have the most long lasting impact?

Dan: I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is there's this smell that wood gets when it slightly burns on the table saw that I think will be in my head. Like, when I smell that, I'll constantly, it's like freshly fallen rain Petrichor, I think is the word. Yeah. I don't know. Just it's a very distinct smell, and that'll be with me till the day I die. But other than that-

Joel: What kind of emotion does that trigger?

Dan: I don't know why it makes me happy, but I can smell gasoline sometimes and that gets a similar respect. So I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing, but I don't know. It's been nice being in a learning environment again and feeling like doing something with my brain. I got in this pattern, I got in a very solid pattern at work where I was good at what I did, but I did not enjoy it. And then to be in charge of trying to motivate other people around you to be excited about it when you're not excited about it is very difficult. So then I come into this setting where not only we're doing this really awesome thing that it's new to me and it's very engaging to have someone like, you can have so many different types of teachers that are good teachers. But I do think that Sandra is the one in a million where, we got experience. We got somebody who's not only passionate about what they do, but also passionate about teaching it and is good at teaching it. You can have three of those things, but if you're not good at teaching it, it can be very hard for people to, I feel like she's very understanding. And anyways, it's been a very nice environment to kind of grow in. Yeah.

Joel: What do form and function mean to you now? And has the class changed how you feel about those concepts? Or how you think about them?

Dan: I think I've always felt form and function… Definitely. I think before the program, a lot of these things were ideas that I've kind of thought about, but not in any hard way to get down to being able to define it. Going through the form and function thing. At first, it's a little bit of, I wouldn't say it was too hard for me, at least, to understand. Function is, what does it do? Make it do that thing. And form is, don't worry about what it's doing. Does it look good? Kind of. And getting those two to meet is important, but, I don't know. I think we have so many things in this world that are just one or the other, and it's very frustrating for one reason or another. These days, people go and buy beautiful looking things that are made absolutely cheap. And it's like, well, why don't we buy something that looks great? Because it can look exactly the same way that they've made it look. They just don't want to spend the money. Sure, a consumer might need to spend a little bit more, but I'm a very strong proponent of if you want something, you don't have to buy the best version of it, but go buy a version that's going to last. Because you think you're saving money by buying the one that's half price now, but you end up having to buy it sooner. Because a good example, at least in restaurants, was shirts. Go and buy a black shirt. If you buy the lower end one, they fade so fast. Just go buy a nice one. But with form and function, it's kind of like, I don't know, it's everywhere around us. And if you stop to really appreciate the form of things I think you can figure out their function sometimes, even if you don't know what it does. And it's hard to put into concise words, but I think I'd appreciate, I appreciate form more now than when before the program, I think. And identifying just because I don't like something for my own personal reasons doesn't mean that it doesn't meet what it was trying to do. And I think that ties into art really well. This is an art that we're doing. You could be making a chair for someone, but that doesn't mean it's not an art. Right. Yeah, you need a chair. But look at all our chairs. I would say you could probably put them down and not know whose they are. And if you knew us pretty consistently, be like, that's this person's chair. And I think that says a lot about how yeah, make a chair. Okay, well, how many different chairs are there in the world? Right. Just says a lot about humans and society that you can…

Joel: Has the class changed how you feel or think about trade and art?

Dan: Yeah, I mean, I always had an appreciation for it, but I think having actually done it now, I don't know. It's just crazy to me how much passion you can spark in people when they're making something themselves. Even people that seem, I wouldn't call them dull, but just you meet people in life that are… I'm quite a loud, boisterous person sometimes. But you can meet people that are quiet, that have just as much or more passion than me in doing this. Right. I don't think that those two things ever go hand-in-hand. It can be. So to see some of these, you meet a lot of craftspeople that I think are quiet, introverted people, but just being able to focus and express themselves through something that hopefully lasts for, I mean, we saw some things that were 500 years old and that's some guy like us built that, man, that's nuts.

Joel: How do you define art?

Dan: I don't know. If I had to just do it right now off the top of my head. I think art is anything that can invoke an emotion in people, whether intended or not.

Joel: It's a good definition.

Dan: Yeah.

Joel: William Morris defined art as the pleasure people take in their labor.

Dan: Okay.

Joel: What do you think of that definition?

Dan: I think that's art in a very specific setting, because it doesn't have to be something somebody made. You could argue a sunset is a type of art if you really wanted to. But I do believe that, I think when people try to make art that doesn't have passion or is about making money. I do think it's more apparent. A good example of that is I've always struggled with appreciating… I'm probably being too vague here, but like abstract art, where there's some where it's like here's this white dot on a black painting. I just personally find that very hard to the story doesn't speak to me as much there. And I think that's probably the bigger problem is I don't appreciate the story this artist is maybe genuinely trying to convey. But that's the thing. I think that's the important part if I had to get to it, you need the viewers buy in to your vision, whatever it is, because it doesn't have to be about beauty, even I say that it could be about making something ugly and doing it intentionally. And then how does that feel to the person looking at it? Right.

Joel: So you need the audience to come along with you on the ride, whatever the ride is?

Dan: Yeah wherever you want to take them. Because if you're just doing it for money I think that people feel that, whether they recognize it in words or not. I do think people know.

Joel: I've always felt that way about Andy Warhol. I never understood… To me, it was so clear that he was just doing what he was doing for fame and money and yet he’s still held in such high regard. And I think his stuff is just crap.

Dan: Yeah. Or at least I've seen better versions of what he did. And why aren’t those people more famous than him? Right. That does bring to mind… People can say whatever they want about skill. I do think it's super important. But luck and time, like being in the right place at the right time is so important. Yeah.

Joel: Are arts and crafts affected by economics and politics?

Dan: I think if you say no that you're kind of ignorant to the world. That might be rude.

Joel: If yes, how?

Dan: I mean, everything we do kind of connects, if you really want to get down to it. Not on some philosophical big deep level, but politics is just really putting, what is the state of the world and how are we running it around us?

Joel: How is that connected to the art we make?

Dan: I think art is a way, again, tying it back to people with a story. Most big art changes like the Renaissance and post-modernism and all of that, they really started because of something often either social or political, that sparked this is how we have chosen to speak out against blah, blah, blah. Without using just words, which is one way, how else can I express this belief to the world in some way? Or show a story? And yeah, I mean, especially pre computers and electricity, furniture pieces that people see. Like, those are the things that have some sort of permanence that someone that you don't have a chance to communicate with will see. It can be hard to convey those stories, though, I think, through furniture and art without some explanation next to it, depending on what you're doing, unless you're literally doing, I can't think of the right word right now. Like painting them literally a story like ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics or something. You could figure out some of that with some of the paintings they did. But a lot of art, especially with furniture I think, is knowing the story adds to the piece. I think it's very difficult for the piece to single handedly tell the story.

Joel: For me, a lot of times I struggle appreciating the piece unless I know the story behind it.

Dan: It adds a lot, honestly. Yeah. And it's not a one way street, but the flow of traffic is definitely one way over the other. Yeah.

Joel: Is it possible to be a fully realized artist in 21st century neoliberal capitalist,

Dan: Late stage capitalism?

Joel: Late stage capitalism,

Dan: I think it is.

Joel: You got to put food on the table and gas in the tank.

Dan: Yeah. Because I think everybody hits a point where you have to, I don't like using the word compromise, but compromise what you're doing because you need to put food on the table. So whether, are you compromising your time because you need to go get another job to facilitate it? Some could argue that's probably the best version of compromise because you're not compromising the actual vision itself. But sometimes 99% of artists are probably compromising on some level because this will sell. This is easier. The people like this, right? Versus, Well, I'm going to do it because I like it, and hopefully it speaks to people. I think if you have that freedom, that's amazing. But I think in this world, especially the last 5-10 years, it just gets harder and harder. At least with the route that we're Currently on.

Joel: If you had no monetary constraints and no environmental constraints, what would you make? You got all the money in the world, and if you want to make something out of the world's most exotic wood, you could and not feel guilty about it.

Dan: What would I make? I don't know, man. I would probably build, right now, off the top of my head, I'd probably build a really cool, I don't want to call it, I don't know what you call it. Not an entertainment center, kind of, though. Like, I'd have a full on desk leading into a corner maybe that then ties into the TV area, and it's just all one flowing beautiful wood piece. I think that would be with, where I'm at now, I think that's kind of where to focus. If I had all the time in the world and money and stuff, a full house would be pretty cool.

Joel: What would your house look like?

Dan: I don't know. How much space do people really need, right? Yeah. Couple rooms. You have your bedroom, bathroom, that kind of stuff. And then maybe a guest room, but other than that, I like the idea of a big open, your kitchen is just into a big open area. I don't like the rooms being cut off that much. It's nice somebody's cooking, somebody's in another room reading, you're doing your own thing, but you're still kind of… It's almost like how I describe perfect relationships. You're not becoming one individual, which I think is almost creepy when people become that far, but two individuals on the same path. You don't have to be doing the exact same thing, but just being able to be in that space together, I enjoy that. It's nice looking over and being like, hey, there's, Taylor.

Joel: I think that's a good point. If I asked you to make something sacred to you, what would you make?

Dan: Sacred?

Joel: Sacred can be religious, but it doesn't have to be some people-

Dan: Right now, just because of where life's at. I would probably try really hard to make a full size rendition of my dog Ivy that just passed away.

Joel: Out of wood?

Dan: Yeah, out of wood. I think that would be, I made a really artistic version bookend of her a few months ago that was really cool. But it's blocky and doesn't… If I had the time and yeah, I think that because, I don't know. Sacred is such a funny word to me. Yeah, it's hard to separate that from religion due to my family. But yeah, I think that's, I don't know. She was super important to me.

Joel: What kind of wood would you make it out of?

Dan: Her name was Ivy, so it'd be nice to try and find some sort of Ivy that you could do it with. But I don't know.

Joel: Ivy wood?

Dan: Recently I saw somebody mention petrified Ivy and it was just like but maybe they were incorrect. Right. Just trusting them. But I don't know. I don't have a specific type of wood. I enjoy the dark, like cherry and stuff and walnuts. Not that I don't enjoy the lighter woods, but I like the warmth that those ones really pass on, especially once you get just a simple oil finish on them. They have this warmth that you don't get from some other woods.

Joel: What would you do with the artwork when you were finished?

Dan: Oh, it would be sitting, like, right next to the spot I spend the most time at home, the computer area.

Joel: Now for the question that stumps everybody. You only have three tools to use for woodworking for the rest of your life. What are those three tools?

Dan: Yeah. Okay. No bargaining or trying to figure out where your line is. Yeah, okay.

Joel: I mean, you can bargain. Everyone always wants to negotiate.

Dan: As long as you can justify it yourself, that's all it matters.

Joel: There you go.

Dan: I'm trying to think of the things I would have to have. Table saw. I don't think I could ever, the arm power needed for a normal saw, that would suck. Table saw. Like a power drill, I guess. I'm assuming I have electricity. And the third thing, man, I don't know. Probably it has to be a tape measure, because yeah. Got to be precise.

Joel: Good call.

Dan: Yeah.

Joel: What do you think of Sandra and Beth?

Dan: I think I already tooted Sandra's horn a bit, but I don't know. Again, I feel like when you're going through your life, you meet a lot of different people. And not to fall into movie stereotypes and stuff, but yeah, I don't know. Sandra is just probably she's top three teachers I've ever had easily in my entire life. Just, you can have something you really could do with your life, and if you have one bad teacher at that wrong moment, it could just turn you off of it. And it's really sad that, whether they intentionally do it or not, it's really sad that people can do that, especially when you're younger. So to have somebody like her when I'm older, it was just yeah, very amazing. And then Beth, who comes in and does what she can to support us along with Sandra when she's not available to help us out, and then you can tell she's walking by, she's looking at what we're doing. She seems very excited about what each of us is doing. Asks questions and then single handedly to try and clean and sharpen and fix all the stuff that all the stupid idiots are breaking, whether intentionally or not. Mostly unintentionally. Yeah. I don't know. Just it's nice to be around passionate people who clearly care. I think, to sum it up.

Joel: The last questions is not really a question.

Dan: Okay.

Joel: But what would you like to add that I haven't asked you? What stands out in your mind about the last ten months? What have you been thinking about? And I just haven't asked the right question to elicit it from you. About the class, about art, about anything.

Dan: I'm a very go with the flow person. I'm better when other people stimulate thoughts in me. I don't think I'll never be a leader, but I'm not quite a sheep. But I don't know. This program has been a kind of good resetting point in life, having gone, again, I think it's really good for people, at least for me. This is what I've kind of taken away from this, besides the woodworking and meeting people and all of that. Just taking the time to stop sometimes, and be like, okay, what am I doing right now? Not just literally doing in that moment, but what am I like when it comes to the weekend? Am I just sitting around watching TV? And that's fine. I enjoy TV, movies, video games. That is a thing that is a valid thing that you can do. But are you connecting with people that also enjoy that stuff, or are you just sitting around falling into a pattern that you're not really happy with? And I think it's very easy to fall into a pattern that you are okay with and that you're happy enough, but I don't think fills you with the real, I don't know, passion. We're not here for very long. I know it's longer, it almost seems like too long sometimes, but no, I don't know. We're not here for very long. And you should experience whatever parts of the world you want to. And it's very easy to make excuses that I'll do it later, and it might not happen. So just enjoying the present.

Joel: What I've always strived to remember and strive to personify is an attempt to just make an impact on the world, however you define it, whatever your politics are, just according to your unique belief system and priorities. Am I making an impact on the world around me?

Dan: Yeah, positive impact, hopefully.

Joel: Ideally.

Dan: I agree with that. So many of the world's problems now, I think, tie into frustration and people's… Yeah, I think more people are good people than you would guess nowadays, just based on the news. I mean, the news has to show what they show, but people are frustrated. People want to connect. People want to just feel safe and happy and feel like they're doing something that is, like, that they'll be remembered when they're gone, whether it's for making some cool furniture or just making people laugh. And I think it's just super simple. Yeah, we like to overcomplicate everything. Just, it's simple.

Joel: I couldn't agree more. All right. Thank you, my friend.

Dan: Thank you, man. Appreciate it.