Joel: Dan the man.

Dan: Yes, sir.

Joel: How you doing, buddy?

Dan: I'm doing good.

Joel: Good. You worried?

Dan: No.

Joel: Nervous?

Dan: A little bit.

Joel: Going to cry?

Dan: No, I don't think so. We'll see. Can't really tell.

Joel: So what was your professional background before you joined Fine Furniture?

Dan: How far back do you want to go?

Joel: As far as you want to go.

Joel: Take us through the Dan time machine.

Dan: I’ve done lots of different things. I worked when I was young in the food and beverage industry and restaurants, but for the most part, the last ten years were in oil and gas, doing a couple of different things.

Joel: Like what?

Dan: The first thing I started out doing was called production testing, which is very boring for anybody who, well, even for people do it. Basically just test wells once they finish drilling them, so you can tell the old company how much gas they have. That's pretty much the gist of it. There's a lot of sitting around, there's a lot of ass time.

Joel: What kind of trade or artistic background did you have before Fine Furniture, because you had woodworking knowledge before you came into the program?

Dan: Yeah, I mean, that's another thing that I did. A little bit on the side, I guess you could say, like home renos and stuff for myself. Never really, I guess, here or there. Little small jobs I took on that were kind of finishing carpentry type stuff. But I just started kind of making little things, mostly little boxes and small stuff.

Joel: What got you into starting to make small wood projects? What triggered it?

Dan: I just always liked it. I guess I just always liked making stuff. I can't even really think about how far back that goes, but probably quite a ways.

Joel: Does it run in your family? Is that something you learn from your dad or your brother?

Dan: Not really, no. It's kind of funny, though, even before I had an interest in making stuff, but right after my dad passed, my mom, I can't remember what, I think we were looking for some wood. I was going to make the box to hold the container with his ashes, and I was kind of admiring some wood. I can't remember what it was. And my mom said, oh, your dad used to love wood. And I thought that's so weird. I didn't know that. And then from there, it just kind of went off. Like I just I don't know.

Joel: You made your dad's urn?

Dan: No, not an urn. Like, we got, like the ashes came in a container. It's it's like a jar, like a plastic jar. And then I just measured that out and made a box that that just sits into.

Joel: And where's that box now?

Dan: It's at my mom's house.

Joel: What did it feel like to make a box that was going to hold your dad's remains?

Dan: Well, good, I guess. I mean, obviously it was kind of a sad time, but I was pretty happy with how it turned out, even though I did have to employ some help along the way because I had no tools.

Joel: Were you thinking about him while you made that box?

Dan: Yeah, I'm sure I was. I mean, that was five or six years ago. I honestly don't totally remember. I'm sure I was, though.

Joel: Why did you enroll in fine Furniture?

Dan: Honestly, there was, like, a couple years where I would look at it and kind of think, that's too much to move the whole family down there. And eventually my wife just pushed me to do it. She just said, “you just do it.”

Joel: What made you start looking at it in the first place?

Dan: Just the interest of woodworking. It kind of definitely took off after I made that box for my dad. And then I made a few other I made a bunch of little boxes to practice, and then I'm, like, kind of like this, and then I made that one. And I was pretty happy with how it turned out. And I knew I was capable of making decent things, but I didn't have the knowledge that I wish I did to take it further.

Joel: Why'd your wife encourage you to take the plunge when you did?

Dan: That’s just the way she is.

Joel: With your background, you've done all sorts of different things. You've done you said some home renos, but also oil and gas. I mean, you've done mechanical. You could have chosen another medium. You could have chosen welding or ceramics. Why'd you choose wood?

Dan: Oh, God. Because I like to make stuff out of wood.

Joel: But why? Why do you like to make stuff out of wood as opposed to metal?

Dan: It's satisfying, I guess. I don't know. As opposed to metal. I mean, welding. You're just welding chunks of metal together, breathing in toxic fumes all day. I worked around a lot of welders, and I just felt bad for them, honestly.

Joel: Why?

Dan: Just watching them, like, sitting in a cloud of their own metal fumes, I don't know. Most trades, like, I'm not really after… I wasn’t necessarily doing this because I'm after a career, I just wanted to improve skills because if I want to go and work, if money is the main goal, there's nowhere else I could make the kind of money that anybody could make going up in oil and gas.

Joel: Right.

Dan: So it's not it's not at all about money.

Joel: What's it about?

Dan: Just doing something I like to do. Yeah, I love it.

Joel: What do you love about it?

Dan: It's the satisfaction, how good it feels when you make something and it doesn't always turn out great, but when it does, this is a good feeling. I like it.

Joel: Speaking of making a lot of money, how do you feel about the pipe trades?

Dan: Oh, man, I feel about the pipe trades… I don't really know. I feel like they're probably making more money than I'll ever make unless I go back up and work in the oil field. It's a necessary evil. That's how I feel about it.

Joel: What kind of friendships have you made in this program, if you've made any?

Dan: Yeah, lots of good ones. I think everybody that kind of gets into this kind of thing has similar interests and similar personalities in some way, at least. So yeah, I mean, you take 18 people that have absolutely nothing in common other than woodworking, but you start to realize that you do.

Joel: What are some of those similar personality traits you think a lot of us might share?

Dan: Apparently sarcasm is more of those.

Joel: That's true.

Dan: I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it seems like pretty well, everybody's got a pretty good sense of humor and just kind of in the same wavelength in some way.

Joel: Yeah. Do you think it'd be a different wavelength if we were working in a different medium, like metal or maybe glass or something?

Dan: Maybe. Maybe if you stuck somebody from pipe trades in here, I wonder what would happen. Yeah, I don't know.

Joel: What's been your best experience in the class so far? And by experience, it can be anything. It can be a lesson, a project, a lecture, a homework assignment, whatever.

Dan: Well, so far, the project I've been the happiest with is that traditional cabinet. I was pretty happy with how that turned out. It had some defects and deficiencies, but I felt good about that one. So I would say that.

Joel: What decides whether you're going to feel good about a project or not? Where's the dividing line between “I felt good about this project” and “I feel like never doing woodworking again after I look at this project?”

Dan: For the most part, I guess it's just if it turns out the way you picture it or the way you envision it or try to make it. And sometimes certain things happen by accident that turn out to look good. And so that, that's obviously fine. But it's more of your goal, whatever your goal was, what you wanted to make and how you wanted it to turn out. And when it does turn out, it's satisfying.

Joel: So for you, success is execution? Were you able to execute your intention?

Dan: Yeah.

Joel: Does that carry over to your professional life as well?

Dan: What way?

Joel: Like if you're in the fields, is a successful day a day that you were able to execute whatever task you had that day correctly?

Dan: Like you mean when I was in oil and gas?

Joel: Yeah.

Dan: It's a little bit different because there was really no pleasure involved in that. There was no satisfaction in that job other than the day ending and nothing bad happening.

Joel: What about being a dad? Similar satisfaction? Different kind of satisfaction?

Dan: Different for sure, but yeah, it's high reward, I would say. It's hard work.

Joel: Different how? What's the kind of satisfaction you get?

Dan: Well its more emotional.

Joel: What's been your most frustrating experience in the class? And again, experience can be anything. Doesn't have to be a project.

Dan: Let me think for a second here. I don't know, I can't really think of anything in particular.

Joel: Nothing had you pulling your hair out?

Dan: No. There's been frustrating days. You know what probably the biggest thing is there are days where I'll come in here and I'll just kind of spin my wheels. I'll try and start in on something and I work on it for 2 hours. It's a total bust. It doesn't work. I'm making a jig. 2 hours into it, you realize it's not going to work. You try and make another one or fix it, lunchtime rolls around, you haven't done anything. That's probably the most frustrating for me. That's pretty difficult to handle.

Joel: What do you think those days are about? Why..is that just practicing the trade? You win some, you lose some? Or is there an emotional element to it?

Dan: Maybe. I try and keep that out of it. I try and tell myself, don't get worked up because it does happen to anybody sure of it. And yeah, it's probably just a learning experience and obviously not every day is like that. So as long as you can realize that and hey, maybe tomorrow might suck too, but might not, you might come in and get a whole pile of stuff done and go home and sleep like a baby because you feel so good about it.

Joel: What part of the curriculum has affected you the most? What lesson, what lecture what concepts, for better or for worse?

Dan: You know what, the design part of it, which is something that it's so obviously part of making furniture, of making anything. But I've never, ever even considered it at all. And I think now it's opened a lot of doors, for sure.

Joel: Was your chair the first thing you ever designed?

Dan: Yeah, I guess so.

Joel: Are you happy with it?

Dan: So far, yeah.

Joel: Why?

Dan: It's just gone so according to plan so far.

Joel: But are you happy with the design?

Dan: Yeah, I am. I had these high hopes of doing something completely original and nothing, wouldn't resemble anything. And I mean, the reality is there just wasn't any time to do that. I had to basically pick something, roll with it and do the best.

Joel: What'd you pick?

Dan: The Maloof style.

Joel: The Maloof rocker?

Dan: Not a rocker, no. Just a chair. Kind of a bit of a hybrid almost, between a bunch of different styles of things that he does. Yeah.

Joel: You're pretty satisfied with your ability to incorporate some of that into the project?

Dan: It's pretty early on, but so far it feels pretty good. There's challenges, for sure.

Joel: What do form and function mean to you? And has our discussion of those concepts changed how you feel about them?

Dan: That's a weird one for me.

Joel: Why is that?

Dan: I think D said it too, and I just totally agree. I hear that, and it's one of those things that just doesn't sink in. I don't know. I get the idea of it, but it's not one of those things that just clicks and you go, oh, yeah, that's what it is. But I don't know.

Joel: Do you think part of the issue is that they're not fundamentally separate? They're not two different concepts?

Dan: I don't know. I think it's just the way I see it and look at it.

Joel: How do you see it and look at it?

Dan: My brain just skips over certain things, and apparently that's one of them. I don't know.

Joel: So what does your brain do when you're asked to analyze form separate from function?

Dan: I just do the best I can. I don't know. I don't know that I did a good job of it.

Joel: Has this program changed how you feel about trade or art?

Dan: Art, for sure. I mean, trade I've kind of worked around and close to trades for most of my life, but I always saw trades as more like the…Not something that somebody would do out of passion and desire. There's very few passionate plumbers out there, but this is different. There's a lot of people that don't care how much money is involved, and they're not after trying to get rich and build a huge empire. So I kind of brought that to light.

Joel: Why did you think trade was only something you did if you had to?

Dan: I don't know. I guess that's just the majority of the trades. That's what they are. Even carpentry, like some people love it to be able to build something, but there's a lot of grunt work in there that nobody likes, I'm sure of it.

Joel: But how did the program change how you feel about art?

Dan: Well, I definitely appreciate it more. I tend to analyze it more in a different way.

Joel: What way?

Dan: Just look at the details of something, and I think before, my vision of what type of art I liked was very, very narrow, and now it's definitely broadened quite a bit. Everything gets a better chance.

Joel: What do you like now that you didn't like or didn't know about eight months ago, nine months ago?

Dan: Certain certain forms of art/

Joel: Like what?

Dan: Well, I guess a lot of the, how would you describe it? Like, just the certain art forms, they're just kind of more crude and abstract. And there's a lot of things that I would look at and think, why how is that a work of art?

Joel: How has that changed?

Dan: Well, the process was into it and how much effort, regardless of what it looks like at the end, how much effort has gone into getting it to that point, how much planning and thought.

Joel: You appreciate the process?

Dan: Yeah.

Joel: How do you define art?

Dan: That's another one of those, I just can’t…

Joel: Give it a shot. You're a smart guy.

Dan: How do I define art?

Joel: No wrong answers.

Dan: No, there's not. I mean, anything I guess that is to be appreciated visually in whatever way. Whatever way.

Joel: So William Morris defines art as the pleasure that laborers take in their labor. What do you think of that definition?

Dan: That's pretty deep, for sure.

Joel: Well, you agree? You disagree?

Dan: I never thought of it that way. I guess. I can't disagree.

Joel: Why not?

Dan: Because it makes sense. It makes sense. Like, some yeah, some people love certain certain things that processes that other people hate, but so, yeah, whatever you love to do, I guess that's art to you.

Joel: Do you think art is affected by politics and economics?

Dan: I'd like to think it's not, but I'm sure it is. I really don't keep myself too in tune with politics, but yeah, I'm sure it is. Everything is.

Joel: How do you think art is influenced by them?

Dan: For sure, somehow by money. And that is probably the heaviest influence on everything. Wherever there's a demand because of money, that's what people are going to… people that are interested in the money, not necessarily the art entirely, are just going to focus on that and try and make the money.

Joel: Do you think it's possible to be a fully realized artist in this 21st century capitalist society where you need to put gas in the truck and food on the kids’ plates?

Dan: I think so.

Joel: Why?

Dan: I don't know. I think that's always going to be, I think that's always going to be possible because there's some people that are just so good at what they do that they don't even have to… It seems like they're not putting in an effort. None of us can really tell what's going on in their head. Maybe they're stressing about every little thing, but it seems like everything's smooth and nothing, there's no effort going into anything, and the outcome is just perfect.

Joel: Do you think that's natural talent? Do you think that's acquired skill?

Dan: A bit of both, but I think there's a lot of natural talent. If you look at woodworking, there's people that are, some of the best are self-taught. And, I mean, the ability comes with practice. If you just have the artistic talent to translate over, I think it all comes together as long as you stick with it and keep practicing.

Joel: What do you think you're the best at?

Dan: Oh, boy. Like, as far as woodworking goes?

Joel: Just trades. Art? Craft?

Dan: I don't know.

Joel: Oh, come on. Take a guess.

Dan: I should have read the question. Should have been prepared for this one.

Joel: This actually isn't on a list of questions.

Dan: Oh, you got me. Yeah. I don't know.

Joel: Don't be modest.

Dan: What do I think I'm the best at?

Joel: Yeah, you're writing a resume, and you get to the skills section. What's number one?

Dan: You know what? I feel like I'm pretty good at problem solving. There's definitely been some challenges where as far as problem solving in here goes, or start to make me second guess that, but I mean, a lot of the last ten years of work that I'd done were pretty intense problem solving situations, but in a very different application. But I think that translates over. You just have to practice in your particular, whatever you're doing.

Joel: What is the first thing you would make if you had no monetary or environmental constraints? You had as much money as you wanted to make something, and you didn't have to worry about the effect it have on the environment.

Dan: And you're talking about, like, a piece of furniture?

Joel: Anything. It can be a piece of furniture. It could be a sculpture, it could be a building. Could be a giant artistic pool of acid, whatever you want it to be.

Dan: Oh, man. I would honestly build the most beautiful desk out of cocobolo for sure.

Joel: Why a desk?

Dan: I don't know. I don't know. Kieran will get a laugh out of that one.

Joel: Why cocobolo?

Dan: I think that's probably the most beautiful hardwood. I mean, there's lots of really nice woods, but I think that one is something different about it.

Joel: What do you love about it?

Dan: Just the appearance, the color, the green, the figure.

Joel: What have you made out of Cocobolo?

Dan: Not a lot, really. I have a couple of little boxes. I made the lids out of that. Most of it is tucked away, waiting for the right project.

Joel: Do you give any to your wife?

Dan: Anything I made out of it?

Joel: Out of cocobolo. Yeah.

Dan: I am actually working on something that has been in the works for about two or no, like four years for her.

Joel: What is it?

Dan: I shouldn't say because, I doubt she's going to listen to this, but if she does…

Joel: You want it to be a secret?

Dan: Yeah, I want to be a surprise.

Joel: What do you think she'll do when she sees it?

Dan: I don't know. I think she'll be surprised for sure. Because of what it is. It's pretty obvious how long it's been in the works.

Joel: Have you started making it?

Dan: Yeah, I started, like I said, like, four years ago.

Joel: Oh, wow. You started not just design, but actually construction four years ago?

Dan: Yeah, it's a little sculpture. That's all I can divulge. So there's not really a lot of design, but yeah, and then the first kid came along and there's been absolutely no time.

Joel: Are you going to give it to her on a special occasion?

Dan: It's been this long. I'll wait. I don't know if it'll be a birthday or…

Joel: Just when she's really mad at you?

Dan: Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah, I like that.

Joel: What is the first thing, or what is something you would make for me if I asked you to make something sacred to you? And sacred can be, there are a million definitions. For some people, sacred is a religious experience. For other people, something for your kids might be sacred or something that reminds you of your childhood or your father might be sacred. It can be anything. What would it be?

Dan: I think more than anything would be what it would be made out of.

Joel: What would it be made out of?

Dan: I think you can guess.

Joel: Why is cocobolo sacred to you?

Dan: Because it's just so hard to come by. It doesn't even have anything to do with the fact that it's ridiculously expensive, because I've come across it relatively cheap. But it's just one of those things that, it's not going to be abundant for very long. It's disappearing.

Joel: And it's indigenous to Costa Rica? Where your family is from?

Dan: Yeah, well, it's indigenous starting in Mexico and then down to Panama, so it's got a pretty decent range. But there's quite a bit of it in Costa Rica. But it's heavily poached, unfortunately.

Joel: Is one of the reasons you love it, because it reminds you of Costa Rica?

Dan: Maybe, yeah. I mean, I had no idea. I never even heard of it before. And I just was buying some exotics from a guy with a little lumber mill.

Joel: Where was this?

Dan: In Costa Rica. Like, somewhere in the, close to the Pacific beaches. We were on our way to the beach, and he said, “oh, I've got this,” and took me over by his house. It was sitting under a tree. It was so weathered that it was just gray. He told me, “yeah, this is a really good one,” 10 bucks, I think. He gave me this big, long board, and I still had no idea until I got it back and like, oh, I got to sand this to get this thing home, I guess, and make it look finished. And, yeah, I started sanding it and I'm like, well, what is this? And then I started researching it and went from there.

Joel: What did you make out of that first board?

Dan: I haven't made anything out of this.

Joel: You still have that board?

Dan: All of them, yeah.

Joel: Wow.

Dan: Bit by bit, every time I go to Costa Rica, I bring another piece.

Joel: But you haven't made anything out of cocobolo?

Dan: Just little carvings and, like, little pulls and stuff.

Joel: What are you waiting for?

Dan: The right. I mean, before I didn't really have I don't have a shop set up. I've got some tools now that I'm looking to set up once we're done here, but I just didn't have the means to do it or the design expertise.

Joel: To do it justice?

Dan: Exactly.

Joel: You still don't know what you're going to make out of it.

Dan: No.

Joel: You must have some ideas. Having been in this course for nine months.

Dan: I mean, depending going by the size of the boards and stuff, it would have to be like a small cabinet or something like that. Kind of like the little cabinet we built. Maybe something like that.

Joel: The wall hung?

Dan: Yeah. Maybe save up enough to do, like, a little nightstand or something.

Joel: If you only had three tools to use for the rest of your wood making career, woodworking career, what would you pick?

Dan: I have to admit this is one of the only ones I actually thought about and kept thinking about when I read your questions. So I do have a prepared answer for this.

Joel: Great.

Dan: A bandsaw, a hand plane. If I had to specify probably a number four or five. And do I get a whole set of chisels or just one?

Joel: Yeah, whatever you want.

Dan: The negotiation starts.

Joel: It's always a negotiation.

Dan: If I can have a whole set of chisels, I'll have a whole set of chisels.

Joel: You are a hand plane aficionado, I think it's fair to say. What do you love about hand planes?

Dan: It's oddly satisfying. Just planing a piece of wood.

Joel: Describe that feeling.

Dan: I don't know.

Joel: Try and describe it.

Dan: Well, it's just it's it's satisfying.

Joel: What's satisfying?

Dan: Just how smooth it and the fact that maybe it goes back to before because I had a couple of little hand planes I bought at second hand stores or something that I got home, just tried to plain wood and, disaster. Like, just disaster. And then finally coming here, being shown not only how to set it up properly, but how to sharpen it. I'm sure the things I had were dull as a spoon and I was trying to clean wood with them. And the technique, right. Like grain direction, which, if you have no idea, yeah. I could see how somebody most people would grab a hand plane and go, why do people use this thing? This is barbaric. But then once you've learned and it's really not that easy to set it up properly, it works beautifully. It works beautifully. And it can do things that machines can't do.

Joel: Are you going to buy yourself a planer and a jointer, or are you just going to do it all with a hand plane?

Dan: I already have a nice planer and a nice jointer sitting in storage.

Joel: Yeah.

Dan: I'm not against power tools at all. I've done things where I've made a goal of using nothing but hand tools. Just… practice is part of it, for sure, but it's satisfying if it turns out well. But as far as using machines and doing something in 30 seconds, what might take you an hour to do…

Joel: That's a nice time saver.

Dan: Yeah. Makes sense.

Joel: What sensual memory of the shop do you think will stay with you the longest? It =can be a sight or a smell, a sound, a taste, a generic memory, a specific incident.

Dan: I think maybe just putting that first coat of finish on something that you've been working on for a while, and you know it's going to look really good once you throw some finish on.

Joel: Not the way I throw finish on.

Dan: That's not true, Joel. I’ve seen your work.

Joel: What is it about that moment that you find so memorable?

Dan: Well, I mean, part of it is the visual how good it looks, but I think the other part is the relief that it's done. And as long as it went well and according to plan, that's a pretty big sense of relief.

Joel: You're probably not finishing it if it went really poorly.

Dan: Exactly. You might, but your heart won't be in it.

Joel: What do you think of Sandra and Beth?

Dan: I think they're great.

Joel: What's great about them?

Dan: I think they're really good at what they do. You can tell. Obviously, they love to teach. Not everybody can do that. I think most people can't do it.

Joel: Yeah.

Dan: So I think it's it's really amazing when somebody who clearly is so good at doing something will, instead of just doing that, take the time and dedicate the time to teach somebody else how to do it and pass it along, because yeah, the majority of people don't have the patience.

Joel: Do you think you would? You're a pretty patient guy.

Dan: I don't know. As far as teaching stuff, I struggle with that a little bit.

Joel: I think you're a natural teacher.

Dan: I guess it depends. I don't know.

Joel: Any final thoughts? It's not really a question, but anything we haven't talked about that you want to bring up? Any answers to questions I haven't thought to ask? Just any feelings about the program, about your journey, about woodworking?

Dan: Well, I'm definitely happy I ended up here.

Joel: Yeah.

Dan: This is one of the best decisions I ever made.

Joel: Why?

Dan: I just, i love it. I love every Part of making things. There's obviously parts that are a little bit tedious. I don't love sanding, but the outcome is worth it. And I just learned so many things that I never would have learned. I have a lot more to learn, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of where to go now, which way to go and what to focus on. I don't think I would have ever got to that point without coming here. I had quite a few people that were like, “What are you going to do? What, you're like, 40 something years old and you got two little kids, like, kind of too late for you.”

Joel: What do you say when they say it's too late for you?

Dan: It's not. I mean, some people, that's their personality. They never would do it. I can see that. It's just not, I just went for it, I guess, and I don't regret it at all.

Joel: Great. Dan the man. Thank you very much.

Dan: Thank you, sir.

Joel: Appreciate it.