Joel: So Dustin, if you could share with me what was your professional educational background, either or both before you enrolled in the Fine Furniture program?

Dustin: High school, 1994, in addition to driving school, which I got a class Three license in 2021, I think, but that's it. Yeah. Zero. Nothing.

Joel: What kind of trade and artistic background did you have before Fine Furniture? Even if it wasn't formal education or a job? 

Dustin: Artistically, I still am a musician, but I played music professionally for almost a decade. I played in a band called Hot Hot Heat. And when I was with the band, I released three records. Two on a major label, Warner Brothers, one on an independent label called Sub Pop. And with that band I toured the world, sold some records, just went through the wringer, if you would. So that would be what, that was my like, I guess, creative expression and sorry, was that trade? Is that what you asked? Yeah.

Joel: I mean trade or artistic background?

Dustin: Yeah, no trade. Zero. I mean, actually, literally nothing except building a dog house for my ex girlfriend's dog. That's about as far as I got. 

Joel: Which you subsequently killed?

Dustin: No, I like that dog. I killed my ex girlfriend though. What? Fuck.

Joel: How do you think your experience has been affected or is unique due to your musical background, your professional musical background? I guess, how is what you're going through different than what I'm going through in the program because of your unique previous experience with art and music? 

Dustin: I think, like, I think it's made it like maybe a little more difficult for me in that I'm self-taught with music and like like even like any creative expression, I just of throw shit at the wall until it sticks and figure out that way. Whereas with this, there's a hindrance. And I still do it. Even with this capstone project. I'm like, I drew a production path and a calendar, but I'm not looking at that. And I probably won't look at it ever. I just kind of just do a bit of this, do a bit of that, see if it looks good, continue on. And I think as a musician, when I toured early, before we became a crew, like a tour bus and like a tour manager, it was really like, we're just out there, and you just got to fucking figure it out. The van breaks down. It's on you to figure out how to get it to the next town or whatever. And I think that's been helpful here because as I gain a little more confidence with the tools and stuff, I find myself asking Sandra less and less because now I'm like, okay, well, she's doing whatever with she's got four people pulling her in four different directions. It's like, well, I need to figure it out because I can either wait and waste an hour or I can just try to do it and see if I can arrive there. And it's getting more and more I'm achieving it more and more now as I'm learned more with this class. So I think that's definitely helpful. Confidence, I guess, is what I've gained. And that DIY spirit like, no one's going to help you. No one's going to do it for you.

Joel: So it sounds like your history with music and carving your own path with music has been a little bit of a hindrance, but also very much an asset to your progress through this program.

Dustin: Well, yeah, in that, again, as I said, the DIY spirit really has been helpful because I'm not afraid to try things because it's like, as I said, if you're in the middle of Nebraska and your van engine blew up, nobody's going to help you. You got to figure out yourself like you are on your own. So that's definitely helped me with that, for sure.

Joel: Why did a professional musician and sometimes commercial driver choose to enroll in the fine furniture program?

Dustin: Well my ex-girlfriend suggested it. I tried to write the exam, failed miserably. Miserably. Just not even, like, a question of how awful it was. It was terrible. And then I tried again after studying and failed again. And at that point, I'd split up this woman. But I was just like, you know what? I'm going to just fucking do this. I'm just going to try to do this just to prove that I can. And it involved going to night class in addition to working like, 60 to 70 hours a week driving. And I just hunkered down and just wanted to fucking prove to myself that I did it. And I did it, and I got in. And then I was like, oh, wait, I guess maybe I have to do this now. I mean, I don't have to. I can choose not to. But I was like, well, I don't really know if I want to drive a truck for the rest of my life. I mean, it's fine, but it's not what I think I was cut out to be doing. In terms of trades it seemed like kind of the wisest choice because there's creativity in it. And I definitely know that on a job site, I probably would not have a good time with the fucking jar heads that typically populate those places.

Joel: I would think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think that your ex-girlfriend, like my ex-girlfriend and most people's ex-partners, made a lot of suggestions about what you should do. Why did you listen to this particular suggestion?

Dustin: It was because for me, I just got sober. We were in COVID, and I was unemployed. Like, I was working a bar, so I had to stop working a bar to get sober. And so I was, like, just thinking of shit to do. And that's also why I got the license, because I thought, okay, well, that's something that will at least afford me a job that will pay, like, not the greatest money, but it'd be enough to survive off of. But I wanted to do something in addition to that that wasn't driving a truck and hauling around skids of produce. But I think I listened to her because going to the trades seemed like not a bad idea because trades people are real, they are desperate for people. So again, I looked at the Camosun website and like, well, that seems to be the best fit for me. All right, I'll try it. What do I have to lose? Write the assessment, get accepted, and maybe go. Maybe I won't. I don't know.

Joel: This is personal, so obviously you don't answer it, and I can edit it out if you want. I don't know how to phrase this exactly.

Dustin: Just say it.

Joel: How has previously not being sober and now being sober, what effect does that have, if any, on your views on the program, your progress through the program, your belief in yourself during the program? Because I think your story of sobriety is really interesting and from what I know, unique to this class. So how does that uniqueness about your history transfer to the last eight months of this program?

Dustin: Its really just cut and dry. I would not be able to do this if I was still drinking. I would have not gotten it together to even write the assessment to start. And also, with just being addicted to alcohol, it's like you have to drink in order to not be sick, right? So I wouldn't even be able to get into a car to come do this, let alone have the confidence to think that I could even do it or even focus. So that's really why I did this or why I'm able to do this is because I'm not drunk all the time. It's a really simple answer for me.

Joel: When you decided on trades, why woodworking as opposed to electric, pipe trades, heavy mechanic? I mean, any number of things.

Dustin: Yeah. Again, I just seemed like it would be the most creative endeavor. I thought I probably was hoping that I'd fit in the best here.

Joel: Do you think you fit in the best here as opposed to if you'd gone to electrical, or mechanical?

Dustin: Most certainly. I mean, I'm kind of a bit of a chameleon. I'm sure I'd find a way. I'm typically generally likable. So I think that I probably wouldn't have a problem. But in the real world, I think it would know. In fact, I know I would probably not like it being on the job site, be like these fucking racist, sexist assholes or whatever. And I think I probably get jaded pretty quick too, which is something that I would want to avoid.

Joel: Speaking of pipe trades, how do you feel about the pipe trades?

Dustin: Well, as you are aware, it was the running joke. It is the running joke still.

Joel: What’s the running joke?

Dustin: Well, okay, so when I made up this sort of like this I had this sort of like theory that if you do something bad, you go to Camosun jail. But I hadn't said what commos in jail was. And then our classmate Dan Rossi decided that pipe trades was Camosun jail. So we just got around with it because he think they're a bunch of idiots. Right. Which is not true. I know for a fact if I tried to get into that class, I would not fucking, not even for a second. It would be difficult because that's just not how my brain works with stuff like that. Oh no. So it went, you become the janitor and then you go to pipe trades and there was a whole list of things you had to do, just bad things. And I'm not going to list them because A) I can't remember most of them, and B) I don't really want it to be like, you know, I don't want there to be a hard copy of this floating around. Any evidence.

Joel: What kind of friendships have you made in fine furniture?

Dustin: I've made a lot of good friendships. I've met people that I would never ever consider meeting, which is nice. For the majority of my adult life, I've just spent time with people that are musicians or artists or creatives or whatever. So to be thrown into this has been really cool. I mean, I know that I probably would have not be friends with Dan Rossi, but we've developed pretty good. And you as well. It wouldn't occur to me to be friends with you guys because of our differences.

Joel: Well, one thing, and let me know if you agree or disagree, but especially with you and I, your background, my background, your hobbies, my hobbies. I don't know that we ever even would have crossed paths but for this program.

Dustin: Yeah, totally not. Well, that's what I mean. That's the thing. Like I would have never crossed paths with anybody in here, now I think about it. So it's cool. They're just being thrust into something. You have no idea what to expect. It didn't even occur to me that I'll have when I take in this class. I was a little bit anxious in the beginning. I mean, I think most people were 17 strangers. I don't know what's going to come of this, but it's been good. It's taught me actually how to also tolerate people a lot better, which is important, not murdering people, which I wouldn't do, but I think you know what I'm talking about. 

Joel: What's your best experience been in the class so far? And best however you want to define best

Dustin: Winning that award.

Joel: Can you tell us what award you won?

Dustin: Yeah, I won Pat Lintaman, I think I'm saying the name right, award for design. I've never won an award in my life.

Joel: Oh really?

Dustin: Yeah, I was nominated for two Junos, but I didn't win those.

Joel: What's the Juno”

Dustin: It's like the Canadian Grammy. Okay. So that was a really cool experience. And I had no idea when Santa was announcing what the awards were for, when she said my name, I actually, be honest, I wasn't actually paying attention because I was like, there's no way I'm going to win this. So I didn't know who the award, I didn't know what it was. I had to ask somebody else, like, what was the award I won?

Joel: That must feel pretty great to be in your forties and win an award for the first time.

Dustin: Yeah, it's cool. The confidence that I've gained from this class has been astronomical. I definitely feel it, for sure.

Joel: What part of the curriculum effected you the most? Any reading, a skill, a project effected you in any way you choose to define it positively, negatively.

Dustin: Negatively, studying.

Joel: For tests?

Dustin: Yeah. I barely got through. I had no idea, but as we were getting into it, I was like, I don't know if I'm going to make it. I'm trying, but I just can't. And I don't think I would say it was like super negative because I still managed to make it through. And Sandra was really good in that, she's like she didn't outright say it, but she alluded to the fact that it's okay, you're going to be fine. I mean, she's obviously basing this on past experiences, but she even went as far as telling me she's like in an email, I had an exchange with her just stating how I feel and how I'm a little worried. And she said, you don't need to worry about that. It's often there are certain people and it's often creatives, not unlike yourself, that may not get, say, the math problem right away. It may take you three or four tries in a really random but way, but you will arrive there eventually. She's like, you can teach somebody how to use a thickness planner or chisel technique, but you can't teach creativity. That's just something you're inherently born with. So I really wouldn't worry about it. So that was frustrating. But it was also really nice to have that sort of feedback, too. 

Joel: What do form and function mean to you? And has our class changed how you define those concepts, how you feel about those concepts? I know we've talked about them before, and some people react really positively to that distinction. Some people react really negatively. 

Dustin: I had never even heard that term before. But when I was looking at the questions earlier today, I was thinking about how working in fashion, really specifically for the designer I was working for in the store that we had the brick and mortar, we would carry just suits, like just business suits, which are very functional, very functional. And then we would carry other brands like Rick Owens and Macross. That was just straight up like form. These things are art pieces, effectively, essentially. So I did know about it. I just didn't know, I wasn't aware of it being called form and function. And to learn that actually was kind of cool because when I did the form of function bookend, I had a really good time with it because the function was functional and then the form was fucking insane. That's not going to hold any books up. But I didn't care because I knew it was supposed to be form and I got to run away with it.

Joel: For the people listening who aren't in the program. Can you just give us a quick little synopsis of what the form and function bookends were?

Dustin: Yeah. So we had to design two bookends, a form bookend and a function bookend. And the function bookend was to be nothing more than just to function as something that holds books up. For instance -

Joel: It didn't have to be pretty.

Dustin: Nothing like one of our classmates got a piece of metal, bent it in half. And that was a bookend, and that was a function bookend. And I think he got a good grade on it. And then the form one was something that was on the design side, more of the creative side. And it didn't necessarily I mean, it had to hold books up, but she wanted it to be more of a creative endeavor. And that's why I excelled on that one, because it was fun and it was weird. 

Joel: So this is a big question and address all the parts of it, none of the parts of it. How has the program changed how you think about trade? If it has, how you think about art, and then my tendency to talk a lot about politics and the economy. Has the program at all changed how you think about the economy, the environment? Because in class we talk about the economy of making things, the environmental impact of making things.

Dustin: Well, I mean, the economy is, I don't know if it's good or bad. I really don't know the difference. I still have money. I'm not rich. But I've never been in dire straits. So to me, I guess the economy is fine. My portfolio never seems to really waver that much. In terms of the environment. Dude, it doesn't matter. We're fucked. Like it's like 1.5 degrees. We're going to hit it in like..Two or three years.

Joel: Next month.

Dustin: It doesn't matter. There's no point in recycling like little metal bits. Go fucking light it on fire. It doesn't matter. It's not going to make a difference. I hate to be that way, but it just truly is. Just go burn tires for fun because people that fly jumbo jets for themselves, like Elon Musk, they're the ones that are fucking things up. Exxon is fucking things up. Like you taking the bus does not make a difference. 

Joel: How about trade and art? How has the class affected your thinking about trade and art? 

Dustin: Well, it didn't really change so much trade because I always knew that trades were not a bad thing to get into if you wanted consistent, decent paying work. I don't know anything about pipe trades. I don't know anything about carpentry. I know that they make a decent salary, but that's about it. And then in terms of art, it didn't change my opinion too much. It just kind of opened my eyes to another form of art, like commodifying art. And it's like you like for instance, when you sign your major label, it's a business. So you have to provide a product that's going to sell and the major label wants to give you a producer that is known to make hit songs in order for you to sell records. So you have to compromise your art. And if you wanted to make like, or if you wanted to make some really weird like, esoteric like share that's got one leg, you're probably not going to sell it or make any money. So you could do that as just like a passion project or you could make a mid-century modern, I don't know, Danish something or another in order to make money so you can pay your rent or your mortgage or whatever. Commodifying art is such a shitty thing. It really is soul crushing and I'm glad that I don't have to do it anymore. 

Joel: Is it possible to not commodify art? Let me rephrase. Is it possible to create art that's not just for yourself, that's also not commodified?

Dustin: Well, if you're not making it for yourself, who are you making it for? Because then you may not be commodifying. It trying to make money. But a creative expression for me is something that solely comes from inside. And I make it, and I don't give a fuck about anybody liking it. Like, I went and did a wheat paste last night. 

Joel: What's a wheat paste?

Dustin: Where I paste posters up that I print here. This one was big. It was like two of them, three by four. And you just used a mixture of water and water and flour, and just pasted, I pasted the side of this building near Phillips, and they're weird, and I don't care if anybody likes them. I like them and I think they're cool.

Joel: So, as you know, we did a research paper in the fall about a maker, and I chose William Morris, the 19th century British co-founder of Arts and Crafts.

Dustin: Yeah.

Joel: Also radical socialist.

Dustin: Yeah.

Joel: He defines art as, quote, the individual expression of the laborer through their labor and the pleasure workers take in the work which expresses itself and is embodied in the work itself. How do you feel about that?

Dustin: Sorry, say that again.

Joel: So basically he says that art is the pleasure that people take in their work and how that is expressed through their work. So it doesn't really matter what medium you choose. A teacher is an artist if they are taking a great deal of pleasure in teaching.

Dustin: Okay, yeah, I totally agree with that. Because if I'm working on music or doing something like painting or something, but specifically music, because that's what I'm the best at, I can fall into just this crazy loop where I'm just playing the same thing over and over and over and over again. Or I've recorded something and I'm just, like, tweaking something ever so slightly and it's just like a loop for like a half an hour, and I just get so lost in it.

Joel: Is that because you're enjoying it?

Dustin: I'm just in and in the zone, to be honest. That's better than sex to me, or drugs. This is just the craziest feeling. Like you just hit that one thing and it changes something slightly and it turns it into something completely different. I mean, you probably won't even hear it, but for me, that's just like, euphoria, I love it so much.

Joel: Can you try to describe that feeling a little more? Because I think that's really interesting.

Dustin: Just like it's a trance. I don't know, I'm just locked. I literally sit there with headphones on and I'm just eyes are closed and I'm just rocking back and forth listening to it and I don't know how to describe it. I don't know, when you're coming up on MDMA or something like that, or if you've ever fucked on MDMA. It's almost like that crazier than that, if you can picture that.

Joel: Have you ever felt anything like that doing woodworking?

Dustin: No, absolutely not.

Joel: Do you think you ever will. 

Dustin: No.

Joel: Why not?

Dustin: It's too rigid. Whereas when I was describing that thing where you get into that crazy trance and loop, it can go anywhere, it doesn't matter. But if you are turning something, then you put the chisel or the fuck you call it in the wrong spot for 1 second, it's fucked. There's no in and out with that. It's either right or it's wrong. I mean, to an extent, but you can also break things really easily. 

Joel: Have you been or could you be or could anybody be a fully realized artist in this world? Consumer oriented capitalists need to make money, need to pay the rent. No matter how much you want to sit back and make art, you still at the end of the day, need to feed yourself and put a roof over your head. Is it possible to be a fully realized artist?

Dustin: No, commodifying art has fucked everything up. For music you can, but it's so far and few between. It's like winning the lottery. It's like there's Taylor Swift and there's like, I don't know, all those really big artists, but then you have the indie artist or whatever, like, say, Arcade Fire or The National where they make a living off of it. But then you have all these other people that have bands and are trying to make it and they're never going to. There's just no way, because capitalism has destroyed all that. So you can make art, absolutely. And people do it all the time, myself included. But if you expect to make a living off of it, you're fucked. Like, you're not going to. There's absolutely no way.

Joel: What is the first non-musical piece of art you would make if you had no monetary or environmental concerns? And I don't mean just drawing something at home, something that actually requires a significant amount of time and energy and investment. It's not music.

Dustin: I would love to do something like Richard Sarah.

Joel: Who's Richard Sarah?

Dustin: He's a sculpture. He does a lot of sculpture. He does these big metal panels. He's in the Toronto Pearson airport. He's got one, I can't remember what it's called, but it's giant. It's like as big as this fucking workshop here. And it's tall. It's just like this curved metal. And he does paintings and stuff like that, but it's just on a giant scale. I would just love to just make something like that, just black, like a big brick of something black and hang it from the ceiling up in the corner, but have it be like 40ft long, whatever.

Joel: Why black? A lot of your art is black that I've seen. A lot of your clothing is black. Why black?

Dustin: Well, I like the aesthetic. I mean, that's pretty obvious, but it's a throwback to coming up in punk and hardcore. Kids just wore black because it's intimidating. And that just kind of stuck with me. And then, I deviate from it periodically, but typically, I find myself coming back to it. But working in the fashion world, all the stuff avant garde fashion is black, and for a reason you put it on, it's like, whoa, that's crazy looking. You look like a witch. So it's off putting. I think also, too, it's like dark. And that's kind of what I want to want to put forth a little bit too.

Joel: So you sort of answered my follow up question, which is, do you want your art to be off putting and intimidating?

Dustin: 100%.

Joel:Why?

Dustin: Because I think it's challenging. My chair that I'm making, I want to have it so people actually don't want to sit in it. I don't give a fuck about winning best chair. I'd rather win worst chair. But if I make a statement with it, that's more important to me.

Joel: If I asked you to make something sacred, however you define sacred, what would you make sacred?

Dustin: Sacred? I don't know an answer to that. I don't have anything sacred to me. I don't know. I'm not religious. I’m not like spiritual.

Joel: It can be religious or spiritual. Like, for example, if somebody was greatly attached to their dog and their dog was the most important thing in their life, maybe they would make a portrait of their dog or a sculpture of their dog.

Dustin: Yeah, okay. The most sacred thing to me is the fact that I was gifted creativity. But I don't know how I make that into something. It's been single handedly the best thing that's ever happened to me. Obviously, I'm born with it, I nurtured it, and I've developed it over the years, but that would be the only thing I can think, really. I mean, material possessions, you can replace them. And I don't have a dog.

Joel: Maybe a sculpture that's an ode to creativity. 

Dustin: I guess so, yeah. I mean, again, maybe like you were saying, what can I make without any sort of environmental consequences? Like that. If I made something, like, on a grind scale, I'd be like, that's cool. And that's sacred to me because that's an expression of how I feel.

Joel: If you had only three tools you could use for woodworking for the rest of your life, what would those three tools be and why?

Dustin: Table saw, jointer and thickness planer.

Joel: Why?

Dustin: Because those things are what you use to get things square and cut everything down. And then they're also convenient and quick to use. And they're typically almost failsafe because I'm kind of a bit of a fucking two left handed guy here. Like, fucking bag of left handed hammer situation. So if I can eliminate any sort of element of surprise or anything that might go wrong, I would definitely get something that's going to help me with that. Oh, and they're also loud and destructive. Which I appreciate.

Joel: What sensual memory from the shop do you think will stay with you? A sight a smell, a sound?

Dustin: I think the one that one of them is the whistling sound that sounds like House of Pain when you turn on the finishing room fan. And also the smell of the shop. When I walk in first thing in the morning, just it's quiet. There's nobody here. Or maybe there are a couple of people here. It feels like things kind of settled a little bit so it's not, like, really dusty, but you still get the smell that it's a wood shop. I really like that a lot.

Joel: I was thinking about these questions this morning, and that is my answer to that question as well. Smell first thing in the morning. To me, it smells, like you said, calm and peaceful, but it also smells honest.

Dustin: Okay. Yeah.

Joel: It just smells like a total lack of artifice, lack of any sort of pretension. I really like that. And I've never smelled anything that smells like a lack of pretension before.

Dustin: Interesting. 

Joel: Last question. Knowing that Beth and Sandra will listen to this, tell us how you feel about our instructors. 

Dustin: I think that, well, first and foremost, I think what I like about this program is that it is women running it, or, I think female-identifying people running it. Not that there's any sort of male machismo in this class. Maybe in past years there has been. It just adds, like, an element that I really appreciate. For myself, like, specifically being bullied and, like, abused by my stepfather as a child. Like, I hate toxic men, and again, there's none in this class, thank God. But it's nice to have that element. They just sort of add, like, a nice just like and I don't want to sound sexist, but women have this way that it's just, like they're more calming, I guess, if you will, and I feel more safe, I think, actually, is probably the best way to describe it, because they're both really cool, safe, nice people.

Joel: Yeah, I agree 100%.

Dustin: Yeah.

Joel: Anything you want to share? Sort of an open-ended question. Anything you want people to know about you? Your work, your experience in fine furniture that we haven't touched on, that I haven't asked you about?

Dustin: Yeah. Prior to this class, I had explored as a creative photography, but in terms of actual visual art, I didn't zero. I took a collage class in the beginning of this semester or beginning of this year, pardon me, in September, and that was really my introductory, and this class has really pushed me into it. And that is actually, I really thank Sandra for that, because she really, I think, saw it in me early and just was like, you do this, try this, try this, try this, try this, with her encouragement. And it's really opened a lot of windows for me. Not windows pardon me, but it just really opened up a lot of creativity that I didn't know, that I knew that I had but I wasn't sure how to express it. And it's been really great having that resource to print those posters that I do, to go wheat paste them has been incredible. And I have been like, oh, wait a minute, I actually can do creative things that aren't music. Without the help of Sandra pushing me in that direction, I would have definitely not done it.

Joel: Thanks, Dustin. 

Dustin: Yeah, man.