Joel: Kieran.

Kieran: Joel.

Joel: You ready for this?

Kieran: I think so.

Joel: Good. How's your day?

Kieran: Yeah, not bad. Not bad. Yeah.

Joel: What'd you do today?

Kieran: What have I done? Recut some pieces. So that was fun. Just doing rail work and trying to fit everything together.

Joel: Base looks nice.

Kieran: Yeah.

Joel: Bent lam looks good.

Kieran: Yeah, looks great. No, I'm like yeah, blown away by the result.

Joel: So what was your background before Fine Furniture? Professional or educational? What did you do with your life eleven months ago?

Kieran: Eleven months ago, I just got back from Lake Louise ski resort. Yeah. Did a season there. Snowboarding then. Yeah. Before that I was on oil rigs. Before that mover, piano mover.

Joel: It's good for your back.

Kieran: Yeah, it's still there, but yeah, no, it's not a very lasting career, for sure.

Joel: Did you have any trade or artistic experience before you joined the program?

Kieran: A little bit. My mom is a pretty big artist. She went to art school and all that stuff.

Joel: Art school for what?

Kieran: Just fine arts, I'm pretty sure. I actually don't know exactly what it was for, but yeah, no, she did a bunch of prints and stuff for her, like capstone project.

Joel: Does she still make art?

Kieran: Now and then. Definitely not so much. Yeah.

Joel: Did you grow up with her talking about art?

Kieran: Yeah, she got me involved in it pretty early on.

Joel: How did she get you involved in it?

Kieran: Just drawing. Just encouragement with it. I really liked drawing when I was little, and then kind of it just got really tedious because, like, the drawings that I want to do are stills. Like not a portrait, but basically copying an image to the best of my ability. It would take three months kind of thing. So I haven't done it in a few years.

Joel: Why?

Kieran: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, because I’m not bad at it, definitely.

Joel: Why haven't you been doing it?

Kieran: Just kind of lost touch with, definitely lost touch with drawing. But yeah, honestly, I don't know. I guess the career, baseball, the athletics, all the working. Like, I've been working almost full time since I was 15 kind of thing, when I can. Just kind of didn't have the time for it anymore. But now and then, like I'd say, the last drawing I did was probably two years ago, and it was like a little deer skull.

Joel: Oh, wow.

Kieran: Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Joel: But why did you enroll in Fine Furniture?

Kieran: Another funny one. Yeah, it was my mom again, actually, because I didn't know what I was going to do when I got back from Lake Louise and then started working at Phillips Brewery over the summer. And then towards the end of the summer, my mom started talking to me and she was like, “Hey, I found this program. You took woodworking back in grade nine. Whatever. You really liked it.” So she was like, “Yeah, take this fine furnace. You never know what's going to happen. Maybe you really enjoy it.” Whatever. It's like, “All right, that's a good idea.” So it was all her, really. But I applied probably a month before school started this year, so it was, like, early August. I applied for the course and then thinking, “There's absolutely no way I'm getting into it this year,” so fully preparing to do it come next year. And then yeah, like two weeks after I applied, I get a phone call from the registrar, and they're like, “Hey, we got a spot. You want to go?”

Joel: Were you happy?

Kieran: Yeah, I was pretty happy. Yeah, I was definitely.

Joel: But why fine furniture? You could have enrolled in all sorts of different things. You could have done welding, you could have done glass work, you could have done pipe trades.

Kieran: Yeah, I don't know something about the wood.

Joel: What about it?

Kieran: Probably grade nine. I did a little bit in grade eight, but grade nine was really the only woodworking experience I ever had. And then yeah, no, like, I made a chair, and it actually is a pretty nice chair, and so I kind of figured I'd be all right at it. Typically. Yeah. Good with, yeah, just crafts in general. You know, I got the patience. Right. That's the main thing.

Joel: How do you feel about the pipe trades?

Kieran: I think they're a great group of guys over there. We give them shit. We give them a hard time, but yeah, I'm sure they got some good guys over there.

Joel: What kind of relationships or friendships have you made in the program?

Kieran: Some really good ones. Yeah. And some hopefully lasting ones. Laurence moved in with me there for a little bit…

Joel: What am I, chopped liver?

Kieran: I was getting to you, I was getting to you. No, Laurence and I spent a lot of time together, like, you know, spent 8 hours of school and then go home and hang out. Yeah. So that was I'm sure that's a lasting friendship. And then I'm your permanent house sitter. Right. Official.

Joel: It's a good gig. I mean, it's not a bad gig. There's worse gigs to have than lying on the couch petting my dog.

Kieran: Yeah. Moving.

Joel: Exactly. Would you rather be moving a piano?

Kieran: Absolutely not.

Joel: What has been your best experience in the class so far? And by experience I mean a lecture, a particular class period, a demo, a project, however you define experience.

Kieran: Yeah, probably just being absolutely humbled day in and day out by just the craft itself and how close to perfection that everyone strives for, obviously, but how extremely difficult it is to actually get there and doing everything. This is kind of something that I've kind of lived by throughout the course, is just everything is intentional every year, taking off the tiny, like, half mil. Everything is intentional down to the half mil kind of thing. So. Yeah. I don't know. Just getting better over throughout the ten months has been really cool.

Joel: It's nice to see that. You're still young. The older you get, the less you have that experience, so I agree with you. It's really valuable.

Kieran: Yeah.

Joel: What's been your most frustrating or dispiriting experience so far? And again, define experience however you want.

Kieran: Yeah, like the… Obviously messing up making a bad cut or something. That's never a good time. That's happened a few times.

Joel: Anything in particular that you can think of, though?

Kieran: Well, like I said, I was redoing the rails today. That was more of a design flaw. And so going back and that's the other thing it's not even doing, maybe you make a wrong cut, but turns out, or even you make a right cut, turns out it just doesn't work and you're back to the drawing board. I wouldn't say that that's frustrating, though. That just kind of, you know, just goes with it. But yeah, I don't know. Some of the some of the homework assignments weren't great. That essay wasn't very fun.

Joel: Really?

Kieran: Yeah. It's not a big fan of writing, to be honest.

Joel: What's been your best experience? Actually, I already asked you that. What has been the experience that-

Kieran: I could have another answer.

Joel: Well, so maybe this might work, too. What is the experience that's affected you the most, whether positively or negatively? 20 years from now, we're sitting around drinking beer. What's the thing you're going to remember as having the longest lasting impact on you?

Kieran: I'd say probably, was it the the first? The second box assignment. We did the veneer box. It took me two weeks longer than everyone else to finish the box.

Joel: But it was beautiful. Obviously, this is audio. Describe that box for people listening, because I do remember that box really well.

Kieran: Yeah.

Joel: And explain why, so early in the program, you decided to, and I think importantly had the confidence to, make something that intricate?

Kieran: Yeah. Well, to be honest, we were at IDS West, and then I was at a coffee shop with Peter and Laurence and went to the bathroom, and there was that exact design on, like, the tiles on the floor. So yeah, that's where that came from.

Joel: How did you have the confidence to try something like that that early in the game? Because, I mean, my confidence I'm just starting to build confidence in nine months. And you had the confidence to try that on week six or week seven.

Kieran: Yeah, I think I was obviously testing myself, seeing what I could if I could pull it off. And it's like the patience thing. I don't really doubt myself too much when it comes to crafts. Doesn't really matter what it is. Like, even metal, metal work, like art, drawing, painting, even to an extent. Yeah. I don't know. Just kind of just kind of had it my whole life and yeah. So I get the confidence to…

Joel: Describe what it looked like.

Kieran: Yeah. Okay. So it was a keyed mitered box out of, I think it was pine, and then the lid, like, slid in through some grooves. Anyways, it's like a pencil box. So it was basically the pattern. The veneered pattern on top was three diamonds that connected in the middle. So it's, I think it's like, what, a hexagon? Yeah. And so basically, it looks like a 3D cube out of three diamonds. Kind of hard to explain, but I did all the diamonds out of different wood, so then they all had different shades to them and it kind of gave it that 3D effect. It worked out really well. The hardest part for sure was just getting the consistency in those diamonds that I had to cut. But, yeah, as soon as I had that done, it was pretty much…

Joel: It was beautiful.

Kieran: Thank you.

Joel: What do form and function mean to you? Has our class changed how you think about those concepts?

Kieran: Yeah, totally. Well, I got just barely passed on the form sorry, the function assignment that we had because I handed in a very nice piece of yew log that wasn't exceptionally functional. It had a little bit of form going on. But, yeah, no, I definitely think form plays a big part has played a big part in my designs this year. Like, more so form over function with me anyways, just because I kind of, I don't know, I've got a bit of creativity. That was actually a big thing for me coming into this course because I did not think I was a very creative person.

Joel: But you said that you've always felt secure being crafty.

Kieran: But that was reproducing what other people have already done. All my drawings were literally just copying an image off the Internet. Not, like, tracing it. Hand drawing the whole thing. But, yeah, there was never any creativity in my drawings. And then I'd try to get creative and it would just be like, what is this? This is not the same artist. But, yeah, coming into here, it was very eye opening. Like, even the 20 chair share that was, like, all straight off the head and there's talking to people and they're like, oh, yeah, I just looked up some chairs. Which is totally fine. But, yeah, no, it was just a really good thing for me to discover.

Joel: So that's sort of the lead into my next question, which is, how has this program changed the way you feel about art?

Kieran: Right, yeah, that's definitely a big one, is just kind of having not only the confidence in my ability, but the confidence in my creative side as well.

Joel: Was it when you made the bookends that you finally started to feel a little more confident in your creativity?

Kieran: Yeah, it was like, not super early on. I think the bookends were the first kind of design.

Joel: What gave you the confidence to try and be creative? Was it something Sandra said? Was it just the assignment itself, being in the shop? Because you've had, whether you're drawing or whatever you're doing, you've had plenty of opportunity to be creative in the past. So why did you take the leap in October or November?

Kieran: Yeah, I guess I just wasn't afraid to be.

Joel: Why not?

Kieran: I think that that is like, maybe I didn't realize it, but that was a big thing that I wanted to get out of this course, was just kind of seeing what I could do.

Joel: But why did you decide you weren't afraid when you decided?

Kieran: I don't know. Just the desire to find out what I could and could not do. So maybe it wasn't confidence, it was just curiosity.

Joel: How do you define art?

Kieran: Good question. Yeah, it can be anything, obviously. You look at someone like Dustin and you're like, okay, that guy knows what's up. He's an artist. He's done many different, what's the word?

Joel: Mediums?

Kieran: Mediums, yeah. I don't really know where I was going with that, but yeah, it’s anything, it can even be like a reproduction of something. To me, that's still art for sure. Yeah. Even copying something that something's already done but doing it in a like not making a mockery of it, not just doing it to do it kind of thing, you know, you're putting just effort into creating something. I don't know. Time and effort, that's kind of, I got no problem with time. It's the effort…

Joel: William Morris defined art as the pleasure people take in their labor.

Kieran: Okay.

Joel: What do you think of that definition?

Kieran: Yeah, that's pretty good. That is a pretty good I'd agree with that.

Joel: You agree with that?

Kieran: Yeah, totally.

Joel: Are art and craft affected by economics and politics?

Kieran: Definitely.

Joel: How so?

Kieran: Well, in my personal opinion, the biggest, I don't know, the most unfortunate thing about woodworking is the initial costs of just getting everything going. Like, for me as a 25 year old, I don't have money saved up. I don't have the funds to just-

Joel: You don't have $3000 for a table saw?

Kieran: Exactly.

Joel: $2000 for a planed?

Kieran: Yeah, I got maybe a grand in my name and it's not going to get me much.

Joel: It’ll get you a nice set of chisels.

Kieran: Yeah, that's true. And you can do a lot with chisel. But then it's all hand work. It's going to take you a long time and then you got to charge more for stuff, and finding the people to buy for that price is no easy task. And so yeah, I don't know, it is a little discouraging. Like, if I could find $40,000 tomorrow, I'd be a pretty happy man when I'd start shop. But yeah, no, it's just the money side of things.

Joel: What would you make with that $40 grand? Let's say I gave you that $40 grand and you can't start a shop, but you got to make something right. And you don't have to worry about environmental constraints. If you want to use the world's most expensive and rare wood you can without feeling guilty about it.

Kieran: Right.

Joel: What would you make?

Kieran: That is a good question. Yeah. Maybe another box? No, I would branch out a little bit. Like the furniture… A box. It's super satisfying to do. It doesn't take too long. But like this cabinet right here? Something like that. Who knows how long that took? But it is so much more… It's like worth the time investment for me. Stepping out with that as the result is far more worth it than doing some shitty miter box that takes you 3 hours. I would much rather put three to four months into something crazy. Some custom piece of cabinet, whatever it might be. But yeah, like working with the client and really honing in on what they want and just making them happy. That's the biggest part, I guess. But also it's a lot easier to make something that you can get behind yourself. Just coming to an agreement with the customer on something nice that you both like and then yeah, really getting after it.

Joel: If I asked you to make something sacred to you, and you can define sacred any way you want, some people it's religious, some people they're atheists, but their home is sacred, or a cup is sacred, or a relationship is sacred.

Kieran: Right.

Joel: If I asked you to make something sacred to you, what would you make?

Kieran: Right now? Probably with all of the just ups and downs of this chair.

Joel: You'd finish the chair?

Kieran: I would, yeah. Or make another chair. Just chairs alone. I'd say I've gained so much more respect for a chair. There's a ridiculous amount that goes into.

Joel: It's really unbelievable.

Kieran: Yeah.

Joel: I had no idea it was complicated.

Kieran: Yeah. Even just the height of it, where your knees hang off, your knees bend. That is calculated. Where your butt rests at the back and how high that is off the ground. Everything's intentional. Like I was saying, it's crazy. There's a lot that goes into them. And for that reason, I'd consider a chair pretty sacred.

Joel: You only have three tools. The big question that everyone stresses about. You only have three tools, woodworking tools that you can use for the rest of your life.

Kieran: Yeah.

Joel: What are those three tools?

Kieran: To be honest, I haven't haven't put a lot of thought into this, but chisel. Chisel is for sure number one. Probably a table saw. Table saw… Chisels… Band saw. Yeah. And I think yeah, I think I can get most things done.

Joel: Get a lot done with those.

Kieran: Yeah.

Joel: No planar, no jointer?

Kieran: No.

Joel: How are you going to make it flat? Chisel?

Kieran: Table saw.

Joel: Table saw?

Kieran: Yeah.

Joel: I keep seeing these videos on YouTube. I haven't watched any, about these table saw tricks that supposedly you can use to plane and joint wood. And I don't know if I buy it.

Kieran: I mean, you can do a lot of stuff. You can do a lot of stuff with a table saw.

Joel: It's pretty amazing.

Kieran: Yeah. Jigs and fixtures or whatnot. Yeah.

Joel: What sensual memory from the shop will stay with you the longest sight? A sight, a smell, a sound?

Kieran: Probably get my hand plane dialed in that very first time to where I was getting those, like, paper thin strips. It's just so nice to see. Yeah.

Joel: I have yet to experience that. I’m sure it’s lovely. What do you think of Sandra and Beth?

Kieran: Oh, awesome. Yeah. Wouldn't rather it any other way. Yeah. Sandra is like, I don't even yeah, I don't even know. How much of her brain have we not picked? How much other information? And it's been ten months of just constant information, and she's still got so much more knowledge. It's crazy. And then yeah, Beth just holding down the fort, keeping everything going and yeah, no, it's been awesome. Like, ask Beth or just mentioned something. She's got it fixed the next day. Between the two of them it's a lot of work, but yeah. No, I think they're doing really well.

Joel: Do you think Beth has spent 25% of her time or 35% of her time fixing shit that you broke?

Kieran: Come on. Of all of the things in the class, let's say 22.

Joel: 22% of her time fixing stuff that you’ve broken?

Kieran: Yeah. Not quite a quarter.

Joel: Final question is not really a question, but what would you like to add? What haven't we talked about that's important to you? About your experience in the class, what you've gotten from the class?

Kieran: Yeah.

Joel: Just anything you've been thinking about and I just haven't asked the right question to get it out of you.

Kieran: Right. Well, to be honest, I haven't given this interview a whole lot of thought.

Joel: Oh, thanks. I appreciate it.

Kieran: Yeah. Keeping it au naturale. Well, I mean, give a huge thank you, I don't know if they'll ever hear it, but to Sandra and Beth, huge thank you to everyone else in the class for being so awesome, so friendly and welcoming. Yeah. I don't know.

Joel: Hey, that works.

Kieran: Yeah, we'll keep it there.

Joel: Kieran, my friend, thank you very much.

Kieran: Appreciate it. Thank you, Joel.