Joel: Laurence my friend, how are you?

Laurence: I'm fantastic.

Joel: What accent are you going to use today?

Laurence: I'll go with the OG British.

Joel: Your fake your fake British accent. So what was your background? Professionally, educational background, before you enrolled in this program?

Laurence: Educationally, not a lot, to be honest with you. Professional background? I'm a trained carpenter. Finished carpentry and window and door fitting. Made a few windows and doors.

Joel: And that was all in London?

Laurence: Well, no, not exclusively, no. I used to live in Australia as well, so some of it was in Sydney in Australia, but, yeah, mostly London, England.

Joel: Why did you decide to move to Victoria from London?

Laurence: I hate London. Yeah, I got pretty jaded with the UK and a whole number of things, really. I love to ride mountain bikes, so coming out here and having a big outdoors is definitely one of the main things. Yeah. Also, I guess there's a lot more woodworking over here. That's how I perceive it at least. There's a lot more high quality woodworking going on over here. Pretty much all the windows, for example, back home, and doors are all plastic. We're using a lot of plastic, not much wood, and I don't like that.

Joel: Has Victoria met your expectations?

Laurence: It’s exceeded them, absolutely, yeah. No doubt, no doubt. It's probably the best thing I've ever done, for sure.

Joel: Why did you enroll in Fine Furniture?

Laurence: To get a visa.

Joel: Fair enough.

Laurence: Yeah, to get a visa, basically. So I spoke to the immigration advisor back in the UK and he said that I would have to study in order to make a life here, so that's what I did. And it's worked out great. It's worked out so well.

Joel: So you were in carpentry and windows and doors before you did this, back when you first started in your trade, why did you choose wood as opposed to metal or clay or some other medium?

Laurence: My parents kicked me out at 16 and I needed a job, so I sort of fell into it. And I always had an interest in carpentry over any of the other trades, for sure, probably knowing a little bit about them. Electrics, there's a lot of maths. Plumbing, obviously, you're dealing with toilets.

Joel: Sewage.

Laurence: Sewage, yeah, absolutely. Carpentry was always what I was interested in and I just essentially followed the money and, well, got way of a job I could initially, and then sort of followed the money into carpentry and that's how I ended up where I am. It was sort of out of necessity than anything else. Yeah. I thought I was going to be a scientist.

Joel: What kind of scientists?

Laurence: Any of them, yeah. When I went to college, I'd done triple science, so I'd done all three.

Joel: What does that mean?

Laurence: That's physics, biology and chemistry.

Joel: Oh, wow.

Laurence: And I did pretty well in all of them. That's where I thought I was going. But that's not how it worked out.

Joel: It's not too late. You could still go back to school to be a scientist.

Laurence: No, I'm glad it's worked out the way that it has.

Joel: Why?

Laurence: Certainly on the sort of smaller scale building projects and things that I've done, I have complete control over the whole thing. Whereas I think if you're a scientist, you're only one part of a bigger thing and you can never really claim to have done something entirely on your own. Whereas certainly with fine furniture, you made the whole thing and you're entirely responsible for it if it's good or bad.

Joel: You already sort of answered this question, but elaborate more on how you feel about the pipe trades.

Laurence: Pipe trades? I wonder what they're smoking. There's a trade I didn't want to get involved in, although, as it seems, I think there's more money in the pipe trade.

Joel: They're making a lot more money than fine furniture makers.

Laurence: Yeah, for sure. But I don't discriminate. But, yeah, pipe trades is definitely not for me. No way.

Joel: What kind of friendships have you made in the fine furniture program if you've made some friendship?

Laurence: No friends at all, yeah, I hate everyone. No, I'm joking. No, I mean, I've met people on this course that I would never have met in any other situation. I'd use Leslie as an example, or Leo, I don't know where I would meet either of these two people outside of the course, but it's great that I have I'm so glad that I have. And yeah, I've made a lot of friends. I consider everyone a friend.

Joel: What's your best experience been in the class so far? And that can be however you define it. It can be relationship, a project, a day, an emotion, anything.

Laurence: Probably winning the top student award, to be honest.

Joel: Yeah. So tell us about that. So you were valedictorian of the class.

Laurence: Yeah, indeed, yes. I won the award for being a top student. And I'm normally pretty modest, but I will concede it was a really good feeling. And it's sort of an indication that as a very self critical person who I find nothing's ever good enough, it's vindication that I'm at least doing something right.

Joel: What was the first thing that crossed your mind when Sandra told you you won the award?

Laurence: A thousand bucks, baby!

Joel: What was the second thing that crossed your mind?

Laurence: I'm actually all right at this. Yeah. I mean, I think we've got some really talented people in the class and to have won the award is a great accolade for sure.

Joel: What has been your most frustrating experience? And again, that can be a class, a lesson, a day, whatever you want it to be.

Laurence: I could say a lot of things, but just off the top of my head I'm going to say the tenoning jig. Yeah, it's shit. It's no good. I'm not a fan at all.

Joel: Why? What's wrong with the tenoning jig?

Laurence: It's inaccurate. Yeah, it's inaccurate. And I couldn't even explain how some of the issues that I had with it came about. But yeah, the tenoning jig is probably the number one day ruiner.

Joel: How many days of your life has the tenoning jig ruined?

Laurence: When we done the bridal joints for the wool hung cabinet, I think we took all day.

Joel: I remember that. That was a hard day.

Laurence: Yeah. And we used the same set up with the same thickness of wood and Dan's turned out great. Mine turned out loose, couldn't tell you why.

Joel: Three of the four of mine turned out well, and the fourth one did not. Even though I didn't adjust anything.

Laurence: Yeah, exactly. Explain that, tenon jig.

Joel: What part of the curriculum has affected you the most?

Laurence: Affected me the most?

Joel: What have we learned or what have we experienced that maybe hasn't been the best or the worst experience, but it has had the most profound impact on you?

Laurence: Cor that's a good question. I wouldn't know how to answer that.

Joel: Ten years from now, somebody says, tell me about fine furniture and what's the thing that you're going to remember and talk about you think?

Laurence: Don't know. Probably my favorite part of everything we've learned is all of the actual, the hand skills, hand-cut dovetails. I think that's on every aspiring woodworkers bucket list. And I turned out some really nice ones that I'm sure I'll look at in the future and still think, yeah, I'm not too bad, I'm all right.

Joel: What do form and function mean to you? And has the class discussing it, and our projects expressing it, have they changed how you feel about those concepts?

Laurence: No, I feel exactly the same way as I did coming into this. Form should follow function, and I'm not a fan of the overly form-y designs. Like a Chippendale chair. Yeah.

Joel: Tell us how you feel about about Chippendales.

Laurence: I mean, pretty much every old person in the UK has got a Chippendale chair sitting in their house. And I mean, the ball and claw foot, like, why? I still to this day don't understand why it's something that you would like to see on your furniture. They're all so dark and overly fussy and uncomfortable, right?

Joel: What's more your style?

Laurence: Definitely something lighter, for sure, with less of the fussy, overly fussy details and, like, say things like the ball and claw foot, the cabriole legs that you find on, like, the Chippendale chairs. Yeah. It's just really not me, I think. I like elegant design.

Joel: Has the fine furniture program changed how you feel about trade or art, or how those things interact with politics or the economy?

Laurence: No, probably not. I think I'm disappointed to… We learn so much and the knowledge that everyone gains from this course is massive, and yet it doesn't really translate into a high paying job on the other side of things, and I think that it really should. And that's something that's wrong with the world today.

Joel: How so? Tell me a little bit more about that, please.

Laurence: It's a lot. Just fine furniture in itself is probably more than a lifetime's worth of knowledge, and the skill that you develop. I personally hold that in higher regard than any of these other professions that are held in a higher regard than such things, like being a lawyer, for example, or, you know, a lot of these more academic professions. I don't think that these people can do fine furniture.

Joel: I’m sort of living proof of that.

Laurence: Yeah. I don't want to say it.

Joel: You are. You just said it. When you said lawyer, you basically said it!

Laurence: Yeah. And I guess that's what's wrong with the world. We should be celebrating the builders, the farmers, the doctors, the teachers. And certainly, like in the UK, the teachers are on strike, the doctors are on strike. The junior doctors earn the same as a barista in a coffee shop. The builders are struggling. And the farmers, I think certainly in the UK, they've got, statistically, the highest number of suicides of any profession is farmers.

Joel: I didn't know that.

Laurence: And I think that's something that's really wrong with the world. When we celebrate football players and such.

Joel: Why do you think the world celebrates, respects and compensates football players, lawyers, ad executives, stockbrokers so much more than builders and farmers?

Laurence: Yeah, well, I don't I certainly don't know.

Joel: Why do you think the world does?

Laurence: I don't know, to be honest. I think a lot of it's due to the amount of money they earn. They earn a lot of money and so people assume that they're to be respected.

Joel: Why do you think they earn so much more money?

Laurence: Good question, Joel. Good question. I don't know. I couldn't weigh in on that one.

Joel: How do you define art? What does that mean to you?

Laurence: Again, that's a great question. How do I define art? I guess something that is more than the sum of its components, or that says something to you that invokes some sort of feeling. What is art at the end of day? That is some question to answer. I guess anything could be art, just depending on your interpretation of it, really.

Joel: William Morris defined art as the pleasure people take in their labor, essentially. How do you feel about that definition?

Laurence: Yeah, I think that's quite appropriate. Yeah, I would agree. And I don't know how true that is in today's society, but I certainly would relate to that for sure.

Joel: Do you think a person can be a fully realized artist in this economic and political environment? Is it possible to be a pure artist when you have to worry about rent, worry about health insurance, worry about environmental collapse?

Laurence: No, I struggle with that, but yeah, some people can. And I think being an artist is pretty much a state of mind. You have to decide that you're making art, and if that's what you decide you're doing, then that's exactly what you're doing. And I went to a gallery in the UK and saw a load of crocheted things and it made me think of Dustin's crochet. And I thought, Dustin's is actually way better than this. And is it art? It must be. It must be. I think it's definitely up for discussion what is art and what is an artist. But I believe if you think that it is, then that's good enough for me.

Joel: Subjective.

Laurence: Yeah, totally. Definitely. And contrary to opinion as well, for sure.

Joel: What would you make if you had no economic constraints, if you didn't have to worry about environmental impact? You had all the time and money in the world and you could use whatever material you wanted without worrying about hurting the environment. What would you make?

Laurence: I'd make a house and everything in it.

Joel: For who?

Laurence: For me.

Joel: What would it look like?

Laurence: Pretty big, Joel. Pretty big.

Joel: What else would it look like?

Laurence: I don't know. I mean, it wouldn't be overly exuberant, it would be understated style is what I'd be going for. But yeah, I mean, handcrafted everything.

Joel: All wooden furniture? You going to incorporate other materials, like metal, anything? Ceramics?

Laurence: Yeah, maybe a bit, but largely wood. Yeah, if I could make everything out of wood, I probably would yeah. And I like the idea of, like certainly with furniture where you make something and it is entirely wood. There's nothing else in it at all, no metal, no anything except wood.

Joel: If I asked you to make something sacred to you. And sacred, it can be religious, but it doesn't have to be religious. For some people, their relationship with their partner is sacred or the land they grew up on is sacred. If I asked something to make something sacred to you, what would you make?

Laurence: Nothing is sacred.

Joel: Nothing? There is nothing sacred to you?

Laurence: No. For an object? No, not really. And having moved here with just a suitcase, it's made me realize how little I actually need, really. If I was going to make something sacred? No, I don't know. I wouldn't know that's my problem, actually, is that if you give me a framework to work within, you say, I want a cabinet, it's to fit in this space, great. I can then go away. And I feel like I can exploit that to the fullest. But if it's just this open parameters, I don't know.

Joel: Do you have a hard time being creative?

Laurence: Definitely, yeah.

Joel: Why do you think that is?

Laurence: Probably because I'm so self-critical, I would say. And so everything I do, I always feel like it can be improved upon and that it's not as good as it could or possibly should be. But with that being said, I can look at other people's work and think it is nigh on perfection.

Joel: Why are you so self critical?

Laurence: I don't know. That is a question. We'd have to spend some time with a Shrink to find that one out. But I'm under no illusions. I know that's what makes me good at what I do, is that I'm always striving to do better. Nothing's ever good enough. And that's how I've got to where I am. Yeah, for sure. No doubt.

Joel: You can only have three tools to use for woodworking for the rest of your life. What are those three tools?

Laurence: Three tools. I'll take a hammer. I'll take a, can I just say a saw? I don't have to be specific about it?

Joel: You can say a saw. You can say whatever you want.

Laurence: Yeah. A hammer, a saw, and a chisel.

Joel: Old school.

Laurence: Yeah.

Joel: What sensual memory from the shop do you think will stay with you the longest? A sight, a smell, a sound?

Laurence: The sight and sound of people's workpiece has been launched from the thickness, from the edge sander. It's Leo. Normally Leo.

Joel: Do you have one instance in particular you're thinking of?

Laurence: Yeah. Leo's Chessboard. Yeah.

Joel: Tell us what happened.

Laurence: He nearly sanded off some of his tattoos on his hands and launched it well across the workshop. Well across the workshop, yeah. I think he was the first. Actually no, Dan was the first person to launch something, but definitely Leo. All the sounds of Leo. The sounds of Leo.

Joel: What does he sound like?

Laurence: Well, he's heavy on the tools. You know when Leo is on the bandsaw, you know when he's on the table saw, he doesn't use a splitter. I've seen him free hand cut things on the table saw, that's Leo.

Joel: I know that sander took off some of my fingernails. I haven't launched anything from it, but I've lost a couple of fingernails to it. What do you think of Sandra and Beth?

Laurence: Phenomenal. Yeah. In a male-dominated industry full of this macho bullshit, really. It's so refreshing to have two women there that have none of that and they absolutely kick ass. They are phenomenal. Really, really good. Yeah. And I've looked at a lot of furniture makers. Furniture, and a lot of it I'm impressed by, but don't necessarily like. The stuff that Sandra's made. I both am impressed by and like it. I would like some in my house, for sure. And as for Beth, the knowledge she has to be able to fix and work on all the machinery we've got in the workshop is enviable. Yeah, I'd quite like to have that knowledge. For sure. Definitely.

Joel: And then last question is sort of an open-ended one. Is there anything I haven't asked you about that you want to share? Anything you've been thinking about and I just haven't asked the right question to get it out of you? Anything about the program, the people in it, its effect on you?

Laurence: I guess the stress would probably, currently as we're working on the chair, the things are going wrong for me, I would probably say. Yeah. The pressure that I put on myself has been a lot, but this course has had me more stressed. And I have been working professionally by a lot, by a long way, and most of it's of my own making. But I think the fact that it's difficult to do in an academic course where you sit a test and it's on a piece of paper, when you make something here, it's a real thing that totally translates to the real world, and there's no hiding from that. And that is stressful, for sure. Yeah, definitely.

Joel: Well, you're coping with it really well, my friend.

Laurence: That's only your perception.

Joel: I think that's what everyone thinks. You're cool as an English cucumber.

Laurence: Oh, yeah. I try to be. I try to be.

Joel: Well, thanks, buddy. I appreciate it.

Laurence: No worries. Anytime.