Joel: Okay. My friend Lesley. How are you, my friend?

Lesley: I'm well, thank you.

Joel: Good. How much how nervous were you going into this?

Lesley: Coming into the program?

Joel: No, into this interview.

Lesley: Very nervous.

Joel: Why?

Lesley: Because I don't like being putting on the spot.

Joel: I don't blame you. Lesley, can you please tell me about your professional and educational background before you came in to find furniture?

Lesley: Okay, well, my professional background. I worked for a small hospital and I was part of the foundation. So the fundraising arm of the hospital, it's out on the peninsula, so it's a little tiny hospital, community based. And we ran events. Well, there was two of us in the office, so I organized big events, golf tournaments, galas, bocce tournament, bed race, you name it. Tea with the Queen. All sorts of things at all sorts of venues for donors who would just give to the hospital, which blew me away even when I left after 20 years. It was such a joy when people would come into my office and give me money and I'd think, gosh, they were so kind.

Joel: Did you have any experience in the trades or in, did you have any sort of artistic background before you joined the program?

Lesley: Making has always been in my life.

Joel: You're a big sewer.

Lesley: Yes. So my first sewing machine was my mum's old Jones hand crank sewing machine. So I was already sewing my clothes at age twelve. And then I went through the whole sewing thing through high school and then in Victoria there wasn't anywhere to go as far as continuing on with that. And I didn't want to go to university, so I took a job in the forestry service and worked for them for ten years before I started my family. But sewing has always been big for me. My dad was a carpenter. He used to build furniture. My house is full of the furniture that he built.

Joel: I didn't know that.

Lesley: It's beautiful. And so then my husband was a carpenter. We built two homes together. It's just always been a part of my life as making and appreciating the craft.

Joel: I assume your mom taught you how to sew?

Lesley: Yeah, she did.

Joel: Can you talk about those memories of learning how to sew with your mom?

Lesley: Yeah. So there's seven girls in my family.

Joel: Oh, wow. Any boys?

Lesley: One, yeah. And so she sewed. She sewed for us. And when you got to an age where you wanted to pick up a needle, well, she would put you on the right track and help you cut out your design or whatever, and she would show you how to, we picked it up. Lots of people don't have that ability, but we just kind of all picked it up.

Joel: So of the seven girls, how come you ended up with mom's sewing machine?

Lesley: Probably because I was the only one that stayed in Victoria and I asked her for it. It meant a lot to me.

Joel: Do you still use it?

Lesley: Yeah. No, I don't use it. I have it in my sewing room.

Joel: Why don't you use it anymore?

Lesley: Because it's difficult to crank with one hand and push with the other. It's not a treadle.

Joel: Okay.

Lesley: Yeah. So sometimes you'd have to crank it quite fast and then your sewing would kind of be going off on another angle. It's not accurate.

Joel: Why did you enroll in the fine furniture program?

Lesley: Because I've always loved craft and wood and making, and my, my husband built a big shop on our property, and it's full of all of the tools, and sadly, he passed away. And I would go into the shop and just look at it and think, well, what am I going to do with all this stuff? Like, I don't understand what it's all for. I know a little bit, but certainly not, nothing to do with the jointer planar, any of the fine stuff. So then my lovely girlfriend Angela, she was a huge support for me after my husband died, and her and I were going to take the evening class that Camosun had offered. She wanted to help me through the time. And then she became ill and she passed away. So then COVID happened, and then I thought, well, they're not offering that course anymore. So I thought, well, why don't I look at the full time course? I'm retired. I thought, well, I have to learn in a safe manner how to use all of this stuff. And I looked at the test requirements in the portfolio, and I said to my kids, “I have no idea what to put in my portfolio.” And my daughter goes, “Mother, just look around at the house. What haven't you made here?” And I went, oh, yeah, I guess you're right. I've made the curtains, I do all the gardening. I have my sewing room full of quilts that I've made. And I went, yeah, I guess you just don't think about what you have done. So I looked at the testing online and I went, oh, I have no idea. I can't remember how to do a fraction. So I started looking. I started googling. Mr. Smith's grade six fraction.

Joel: I think I watched those videos when was studying for our entrance exam.

Lesley: Yeah. Anyway, they allowed me to take the class, the exam. I was so nervous, I went in and I did really well. I surprised myself. And then you pass, and then you have to wait for a placement. And they offered me a placement, and I felt like I had already won the lottery. I felt so honored to be accepted into the program and its just been amazing.

Joel: Nine months later, do you still feel like you won the lottery?

Lesley: Absolutely. And I wish this was a two year program because I feel like I'm only just starting.

Joel: How often do you think about Angela and your husband when you're in the program?

Lesley: All the time, yeah. It just makes you appreciate the hard work that goes into creating things and being appreciative of it. And she was just an amazing, heartful person, anyway, all the time.

Joel: So what kind of friendships have you made in fine furniture? If you've made friendships or describe the relationships, especially since you and I, I think, are what they call more nontraditional students versus the age range of some of the other more traditional students.

Lesley: Well, I came into the program thinking, okay, I'm the oldest person here. I'm not going to be going out into the working world. I'm doing this for me. I don't know how they're going to receive me as an older person. I mean, I could be a mom to anybody here, and I didn't want to be in that capacity. I wanted to just learn from Sandra. I've been really surprised and grateful that everybody just sort of thinks I'm one of them.

Joel: You are.

Lesley: Yeah. I might ask a lot of questions.

Joel: But a lot less than I have. Have you had any mom moments? Have you had to mother anyone?

Lesley: No, I don't want to do that, and I haven't.

Joel: Probably very healthy.

Lesley: Yeah. No. Everybody is their own person, and however they live is none of my business, so that's not something I would want to do.

Joel: Even the pipe trades? How they live is none of your business?

Lesley: Absolutely not.

Joel: How do you feel about the pipe trades?

Lesley: I appreciate them. I appreciate my sewage not backing up. I appreciate my drains running. I appreciate my water coming out of my taps. I think it's an ongoing joke. I don't understand where that came from.

Joel: Well, it's because you're too smart and too mature. If you lowered both your intelligence and your maturity by a couple of steps, then you might understand. What has been your best experience in fine furniture so far? And by experience? A day, a project, a lesson, a feeling that you left with after one particular day in the workshop? Whatever you want it to be.

Lesley: Well, my best experience is learning.

Joel: How anything in particular?

Lesley: Everything. I mean, everything to me from the beginning has been, ah, it's all new. So when Sandra does a demonstration, I just stand there and take notes. Or I was videoing at the beginning because, I mean, it's all new to me. Every experience I've had has been amazing. And I've also I'm learning from others that are around me as well.

Joel: Is there one that particularly stands out?

Lesley: One of my projects?

Joel: Or just an experience? Like you said, learning. But there certainly must be some things you enjoyed learning more than others.

Lesley: Yeah, it's hard to know. I just like being around. I think it's important to keep learning.

Joel: Why?

Lesley: Because it expands your knowledge, and it gives you more tools to do whatever you want to do with that.

Joel: Why is that important?

Lesley: Yeah, I think it's important for continuing to learn. It keeps you… because change is constant and you have to keep up with it. And I don't want to be a person that can't go to the grocery store and see automatic checkouts and not know or be afraid to use that. I want to be able to go to the grocery store and look at that option and say, oh, I can do that, and do it.

Joel: You spend a lot of time with your children.

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: Have they noticed anything about you that's different now that you've done nine months of fine furniture?

Lesley: Well, it's interesting because now my son takes after his dad. He makes thing everything. And so now when he comes over, I can have a conversation with him, and we're on the same page. He understands what I'm talking about. And so I feel like, I feel like we have more common knowledge.

Joel: It must be nice to feel like you now speak the same language as your son.

Lesley: Yeah, well, I'm way below his knowledge level, but him and I can have some understanding, so that's pretty fun.

Joel: What's been your most challenging experience and again, define experience however you want.

Lesley: Most challenging I think, is just that I don't remember all of the steps of what to do, and I don't want to screw anything up. I want to be able to see the demo, and then I want to be able to do it. And that's a challenge for me because there's so many steps for everything, and I don't want to miss a step. I want to make sure that I'm learning it all. So that's a challenge for me. Yeah.

Joel: What part of the curriculum has affected you the most? You can't say all of it.

Lesley: Well, the biggest part, I think, is SketchUp was a big learning curve for me. And the problem, like, we haven't used SketchUp for this last month while we've been doing our chair, and I already feel rusty on it, and I don't want that to happen. So I hope I can keep up with that.

Joel: It's a really wildly useful tool.

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: What do form and function mean to you? And has our class changed how you feel about these concepts?

Lesley: Well, function has always been a thing. I mean, function is what it is.

Joel: What is it?

Lesley: It's something that's functionable.

Joel: What does that mean? What does function mean?

Lesley: Function to me is you have a water bottle. It has a screw top, and you have to screw the top on so the water doesn't come out. That's function. Form is the shape of the water bottle ,could be different looking. So I think that's the creativity of it. And I'm not there yet, but I hope to be one day.

Joel: You're not where?

Lesley: At the creativity level. I don't think I have things that go through my brain. Oh, I think that would be cool. But there's a lot more to making that.

Joel: Even though you're in the process of building a chair that you designed?

Lesley: Yeah, I know, but there's so much more to learning and expanding your idea of… I appreciate everybody in the class and what their chairs all look like. They're so different, and that's all their own creativity. So that's a form.

Joel: Is your chair a product of your creativity, though?

Lesley: I’m keeping my chair simple, because I wanted to incorporate all of the concepts of the learning in the program, and I wanted to be comfortable that I was actually going to be able to make it. And I also had to draw it, so I kept it simple.

Joel: I noticed that you keep avoiding my question.

Lesley: What's your question?

Joel: Don't you think that your chair is a product of your own creativity?

Lesley: Well, yeah, of course it is.

Joel: So you're a creative person?

Lesley: Well, I guess I am.

Joel: Look at that! Has the program changed how you think about trade? How you think about art, how you think about the environment?

Lesley: Well, I've always respected trade. It's always been in my family. My father, my husband, anybody that makes something with their hands, I have always respected that. So I don't think it has changed my view on it.

Joel: When you were growing up, did your dad ever talk to you about trade and about labor and about what it meant to him to work with his hands?

Lesley: No, not really, because my mom and dad both came from England, and my dad came from a very strict household. His mother died when he was two, so there never was a woman in his world. And then at the age of 14, he had to leave school. So he went into learning how to make furniture at that time. And then the war broke out, and then he married my mom, and they had eight children, so it was all about supporting the family. So he never really talked about… he was just a joy to be around. He was always making things, but he never talked about it. We'd never had the conversation. I just assumed that my dad always knew how to make stuff.

Joel: Did he seem like he enjoyed making things?

Lesley: Oh, yeah. I mean, for all of us, when we were married, he would make us a bedroom suite as a gift.

Joel: Oh, I think you told me that. And they're all different.

Lesley: Yeah. So mine is a maple and mahogany. It's beautiful.

Joel: Is it still your bed?

Lesley: Yeah, and it's a tall boy, and there's a mirror with drawers and side tables and a headboard. It's a beautiful piece of art.

Joel: Did he pick the bedroom suites based on his children's personality?

Lesley: No, I don't think so. He just said to me one day, “what do you think about maple and mahogany?” And I went, “Yup.” And then he would build it. I mean, he was building bunk beds when all the kids were little. And I actually have a sewing cabinet that he made my mum. And I don't know when he made it because they immigrated from England and they came with little. And I have a feeling it was one of his earlier projects, so it's in my house.

Joel: Did he fight in the war?

Lesley: Yes.

Joel: What did he do?

Lesley: He was based in North Africa and Italy. He didn't talk about the war.

Joel: Okay.

Lesley: And he was not a prejudiced person at all.

Joel: But he was an infantryman in North Africa. And he never told you stories? Did you ever ask?

Lesley: He would sometimes bring something up, but it wasn't in conversation. I don't think he wanted us to really know that part, so we didn't talk about it. We always respected Remembrance Day and all of that. But, I mean, he was in a house full of women. It must have been interesting for him. And one boy.

Joel: Seven women and one boy.

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: Where is he in the order? In the birth order?

Lesley: So he's the second oldest, and he's a twin to a girl.

Joel: What kind of personality did he develop with seven sisters?

Lesley: He's very respectful to women. Yes, absolutely.

Joel: I would think so.

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: Empathetic.

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: How do you define art?

Lesley: How do I define art?

Joel: What does art mean to you?

Lesley: It means well, it means anything beautiful. It means anything that you want to have around you or that you want to make and keep or give away.

Joel: William Morris, as you know, because you did your paper on William Morris also.

Lesley: Yes.

Joel: He defines art as the pleasure laborers take in their labor.

Lesley: Yes.

Joel: The pleasure anybody, for that matter, takes in their labor.

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: What do you think of that definition?

Lesley: Well, he also said, keep nothing in your house that you do not find beautiful or useful. And I definitely go by that. Everything that I have is either beautiful or useful in my home. And I've made a lot of things that I think are beautiful. I liked him because, I didn't know his political views, but he drew and he had the botanics of all of his fabrics and his wallpapers. All of that speaks to me. I went to his house in Waltham.

Joel: Oh, it's still there?

Lesley: Yeah It's a museum.

Joel: Is it any of his politics or just his art?

Lesley: Well, I went there to look at the art, so I don't know if the politics are there. Yeah.

Joel: How do you think art is affected by politics and economics? If it is?

Lesley: I don't know if it is politics. Do you? Is it?

Joel: That's entirely subjective. Some people think it is. Some people think it isn’t.

Lesley: Well, I don't know if it is. For economics… Well, people have money to buy art. They support artists. So it is part of economics. Yeah.

Joel: Is it possible to be a fully realized artist in this 21st century capitalist Canadian economy, where you have to pay mortgage, pay for food, put gas in the truck, all that good stuff.

Lesley: I think it's difficult. I think it's a possibility. I do know some people that make a living on their art. I think that it is helpful if you have a partner that is supporting in another way. Definitely doable thing, for sure.

Joel: The friends you have who make their living as artists, do they seem happier, more fulfilled. Is there anything different about their personalities?

Lesley: Yeah, they're friendly, happy people. I mean, art comes at any time of the day or night. They're not slotted into a nine to five job or whatever. They're always creative.

Joel: Do you think that affects their personality?

Lesley: I think so. They want to share their knowledge.

Joel: What would be the first thing you would make if you had no monetary or environmental constraints?

Lesley: Yeah, I don't know. I don't have any particular needs, so I don't… anything that I that speaks to me.

Joel: Did you ever feel like making something for the sake of art? A sculpture? Or would it need to be useful?

Lesley: I've done a lot of things. I've done felting and made bowls and knitting and made mittens and the clothing. But there's nothing in particular that I need to make.

Joel: Or want to make?

Lesley: Not right now.

Joel: There’s nothing you've been thinking about that you thought, man, if I finish my chair early, I'd really like to get started on this project?

Lesley: Well, I had an idea the other day because I bought a piece of oak at the wood sale, and I have a steam box. I wouldn't mind learning how to steam, and I wouldn't mind making the Shaker sewing, the round wooden sewing baskets that they made, it's bentwood. You've probably seen them.

Joel: Bentwood baskets?

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: The indigenous tribes make those bentwood boxes.

Lesley: That's a bentwood box? Yeah, it's made differently, but it's like an oval, and it has a lid, and they used to use them for sewing.

Joel: What speaks to you about a bentwood basket?

Lesley: The shape I think. It's oval. I like shapes. I like round. Even when I sew and do my quilting, my eye goes to circles. Or it could be a circle, but the pieces aren't made from a circle. They're all made from an angle. It's an illusion.

Joel: If I asked you to make something sacred to you, and sacred can be theistic if you're religious, but it can also be materialist. Maybe your kids are sacred or your house is sacred. Dogs, some people's dogs are sacred. If I asked you to make something sacred to you, what would it be?

Lesley: I don't have anything that I would make first. Sacred? Yeah.

Joel: Nothing? If I asked you to make something really meaningful to you, you wouldn't make anything?

Lesley: I'd probably make a box.

Joel: Why a box?

Lesley: Because it's useful. You could put something in it and it's pretty, and you put it on the shelf. And you admire it, that would be.

Joel: The most meaningful thing you'd make right now?

Lesley: But next week it might be something else.

Joel: I don't know.

Lesley: I change my mind.

Joel: So you come down heavily on the function debate. The function half of form versus function.

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: Why do you think that is?

Lesley: I don't like a lot of clutter. I like to keep a simple. I like simplicity. I don't like stuff. Don't like useless stuff.

Joel: You don't have a lot of stuff in your house?

Lesley: I have a lot of beautiful things I've picked up on my travels and that people have made me, and I have but I don't have trinkety stuff. It has to have a purpose. If it's pottery, it has to have a purpose, a vase or mug or whatever. I don't care for things that just sit there and collect dust.

Joel: If you only have three tools to use for woodworking for the rest of your life.

Lesley: Rest of my life?

Joel: What are those three tools?

Lesley: Yeah. Okay. Well, do I have electricity?

Joel: Yes, you have electricity.

Lesley: I would have a table saw, I would have a plane, and I would have a square, and I have to have a fourth piece, which is a flint.

Joel: Oh, why a flint?

Lesley: So I can burn all the things that don't…

Joel: So you can burn your mistake?

Lesley: Yeah.

Joel: You don't even want to see your mistakes. I'm the same way. If I make a mistake, it quickly goes into the scrapbook file.

Lesley: Well, you got to keep warm, right?

Joel: Yeah, exactly. What sensual memory from the shop do you think will stay with you the longest?

Lesley: I think the laughter. I think the people that are there, everyone gets along. They compliment each other. They're helpful. They laugh. We have lots of fun in the classroom. Yeah. Everyone is so nice. It's nice because they're happy. Your laugh, you're happy. So, yeah, the laughter and your weekly baking.

Joel: You're a baker too.

Lesley: I am a baker.

Joel: I'm looking forward to getting to taste some Lesley treats. What do you think of Sandra and Beth?

Lesley: Oh, wow. I have so much admiration and respect for both of them. They have so much knowledge, and I just wish I could be around longer to take that in and learn more and have their support. They're amazing women, and yeah, I just think they're wonderful.

Joel: Would you take the class again?

Lesley: Absolutely.

Joel: Why?

Lesley: Because I think it's just, I've just hit the tip of the iceberg, and there's just so much more to know. And I can't remember all of the screw and sizes for the drills and what color the handle is supposed to be and the different species of wood, and even though I passed that, or how to use that silly domino machine.

Joel: My last question isn't really a question, but more of an opportunity for you to share something that we haven't talked about some aspect of the program or your experience in the program that you think is particularly important.

Lesley: I love, I mean, I love the way the program has run. I love the fact that everybody starts out together and everybody excels at their own pace, and everyone can make other things on the side if they're caught up with their work. I love the opportunity to do that. I also love the fact that Sandra has a lot of knowledge in her career, but she's also always learning. Both her and Beth are always taking another course. And I think that speaks volumes about the person who is teaching the class, because it makes them understand that we don't all learn, we don't have that natural ability to learn as they as they, as their talent, as they have talent. So the fact that they are still going to school and learning and they struggle with that, it makes them realize that we all struggle too. So that's a huge part of how this program has worked. I think it's the people that are running it that has made it so successful.

Joel: What are you going to do with the 40 hours a week you're going to have on your hands after you finish?

Lesley: I'm going to get back on my bike. I haven't been on my bike for over a year. Well, I have a few times, but I'm going to get back on my bike. I've got a massive garden that's speaking to me. I'm going to get my shop up and running. I'm going to go on some traveling.

Joel: What are you going to make in your shop?

Lesley: Well, I got to get it looking like my own space, and I will probably, well, my daughter keeps sending me stuff.

Joel: What do you mean?

Lesley: She wants me to continue on, so she sent me a picture of a cabinet the other day.

Joel: Oh, so she wants to put you to work furnish her place?

Lesley: Yeah, that kind of thing.

Joel: Well, I hope you charge her a premium. All right, my friend. Well, that's all the questions I have.

Lesley: All right. Well, thank you.

Joel: Thank you very much. This was great.