Joel: Sandra.

Sandra: Joel

Joel: El Jefe! This is it! This is the end of the project.

Sandra: Am I the last one?

Joel: You're the last one. The last one and the best one.

Sandra: Okay.

Joel: How relieved are you to get this over with?

Sandra: Pretty relieved.

Joel: I figured. Um, so I'm gonna ask you probably many different questions than I ask other people. Some same, some different.

Sandra: Sure.

Joel: I think what would be best if you could just sort of narrate, like, college to now. Can you sort of encapsulate what brought you here? And I would love for that to include teaching, art, woodworking, trade. How did you get here?

Sandra: Right.

Joel: Well, maybe it was before college. I don't know.

Sandra: No, it wasn't before college. In high school, I thought I was going to be a scientist. I really liked chemistry and did like the advanced chemistry. I ended up going to SFU for a year on scholarship and then realized that living on campus at SFU is not great. And I came back and went to UVic. So I have, like, half a university degree, and I kind of switched partway through and was floating around, couldn't quite see what I wanted to do. And then my girlfriend at the time was taking the Carpentry Foundation program here, and so that's how I found out about Fine Furniture. And I thought, oh, I just can't figure out what I want to do. I can't see making a career, so I'll just take a year off and do this.

Joel: Had you made anything before that?

Sandra: I think grade eight woodworking was about it. My father would be handy around the house, and I'd occasionally hold the end of a board, but I was pretty tomboy out in the backyard and making forts. But, no, I wasn't really interested in that. Didn't do it In high school.

Joel: Did you have any artists in your family or any tradespeople in your family?

Sandra: No.

Joel: Interesting. So just on a whim?

Sandra: Yeah.

Joel: Okay.

Sandra: Yeah. So I had no outside influences. Yeah, it was on a whim because it was different, and I'd only done academics, really. I took the program-

Joel: What year was that?

Sandra: ‘96. ‘97. And I fell in love. I fell in love with making.

Joel: When?

Sandra: I think right from the beginning.

Joel: From the first day?

Sandra: The first day is pretty intimidating because we had to do introductions, and I realized, oh, wow, a lot of people know a lot of stuff about this.

Joel: Now you know how I felt that first day.

Sandra: Yeah. And it was literally like, I don't know, I'll try this. And I had to do a portfolio, so I had a little bit of time and I don't know, went to the library, I'm sure, and grabbed some books out and hand dovetailed this shitty little pine box together that I'm pretty sure my father still has and, did I don't know. I don't know what I did, but it was enough to kind of get in there so that was, like, the sum of my experience.

Joel: So when did you fall in love?

Sandra: As soon as I realized that it was this amazing marriage of thinking and working with all of the theory and designing. And there's the real cognitive part of it that I don't think most people outside of trades understand. And then I was making stuff with my hands. It's like, oh, this is tangible. And the feeling of accomplishment, of being able to do something and see these pretty cool results was like it's kind of addictive, I think.

Joel: Did you go home and, I assume you went home and maybe spoke to your partner, your family, and did you tell them, hey, I think I've found my calling? I think I found what I want to do?

Sandra: That, I think, came a little bit later. I sort of just focused on doing what I needed to do at school, and there wasn't a part of it that I didn't love.

Joel: Nothing?

Sandra: No. I could see the value in… Maybe plastic laminate. It's like, Well, I don't know. That's not very exciting. Hand tools I struggle with a bit, so we have to learn how to use a hand plane. And the thing just frustrated the hell out of me. It's difficult to learn. So those experiences definitely inform how I kind of try and teach it now. And it wasn't until years later that I'm like, okay, I'm a craftsperson, and I want to make all this stuff, and this is necessary. So I kind of brushed it off and just decided, okay, I'm going to try and master this now. Yeah.

Joel: So you went through the whole class with Cam and Ken?

Sandra: Just Cam.

Joel: Just Cam.

Sandra: Ken wasn't teaching.

Joel: Did you have any inkling when you were in the class that one day you would be succeeding?

Sandra: Of course not.

Joel: No? You never thought you'd be a teacher?

Sandra: No, but I'm not surprised that I am at the same time.

Joel: Why not?

Sandra: Because I've always loved school. I love learning stuff. I love the environment. I actually really liked high school, the school part of it. Some of my university classes less so because a lecture hall with 300 other first years, it's like, it's not the greatest. But I realized I've always felt this connection with teachers as well and just valued the experience of getting to just participate in learning, like, in that environment. I really like that.

Joel: And after the class, you and a friend from the class started your own business. Was that right after the class?

Sandra: No, I kind of worked a little bit in industry.

Joel: Like a cabinet shop?

Sandra: No, I've never worked at a cabinet shop. I worked for this guy's name is Dave Heland, and he did a lot of heritage restoration window indoors.

Joel: Oh, that's right.

Sandra: So I worked for him under the table for cash. A lot of breaking of edges and priming, and he was very gentle and encouraging. And unflappable, so it didn't matter if I made a mistake, he would just show me how to correct it.

Joel: Were you at all disillusioned when you went from this class into industry? Because I could see how for some people, that might be a disillusioning experience. I'm not going in that direction, but I feel like if it were, I would be disillusioned.

Sandra: Well, that's why I ended up working for myself, I think. I didn't even really go into industry too much. After I finished up with Dave, I went and worked at this small, upstart manufacturing company and within, I don't know, four to six months, he went bankrupt.

Joel: What were you manufacturing?

Sandra: He was trying to do furniture, but it was just kind of a ,it's kind of a weird, I don't know, I don't know what we were doing. It was a bit weird. But I got a little bit of experience there. It's funny because I drive by the place that I worked all the time on my bike and I look over and it's United Rentals now, right off Kelvin Street. And I remember like, oh, yeah, I used to sit on the bay there. And that's the sum total of my industry experience. So after I got laid off, I kind of put out a resume or two. But, this is kind of funny now, but the thought of going and working in industry and having to look for a job kind of was intimidating to me. And I'm fairly introverted, or was at the time. So I decided to start my own business, which, of course, is kind of hilarious.

Joel: Why is that hilarious?

Sandra: Well, because you have to put yourself out there, you have to get work. There's so many things that you have to do that are just outside of yourself that require that sort of confidence in being able to talk to people and clients and all that.

Joel: And I know you'll brush this off because you are nothing if not modest, but more than one person has told me that what you and Joe did, you did it better than anybody else ever did it.

Sandra: Wow.

Joel: Why is that? What was the secret ingredient or secret ingredients for you and Joe to make such a successful business for? How many years was it?

Sandra: I think it was about 15. Yeah. We each had our own businesses before we met, so I was, like, making a go of it on my own and so was he. And then, yeah, I think it was at least 15 years. I'm not good with dates and numbers. So around then. What made it so good? I think we were just so passionate about what we were doing and doing it with someone else, like, to have that support and be able to talk things through, it just made it fun. It was really fun to get clients and go through the whole thing.

Joel: Or even now, today, with you and Beth, do you ever talk about that passion? Because sometimes I feel like artists and makers have that passion, but it always seems to go unstated or undiscussed. And I feel like that's a really interesting thing to sort of dissect and sort of examine in detail, like, the fact that you had this passion and were able to make it in a successful business for 15 years. Did you ever sit back and reflect on where that came from?

Sandra: We just had it. Yeah, we just had it. I think we inspired each other. I have great respect for, like, a lot of the skill that Joe has and that he brought to us, and I know that he respects me a lot, so we just had that, like, “Hey, I like what you're doing.” “Hey, I like what you're doing.” And we started working on the odd thing together, and just for the most part, that part of our working relationship was pretty easy. We just clicked that way.

Joel: Why did you wrap it up after 15 years?

Sandra: Oh, big life changes. Just our relationship had run its course, and it was just time to move on. Just time for change.

Joel: What was the most enjoyable part about running your own fine furniture business?

Sandra: The most enjoyable? There's so many. There's some less enjoyable parts too.

Joel: That's my next question.

Sandra: That's the next question. Okay.

Joel: You can answer that first if you want.

Sandra: No, I'll lead with the good. Okay. Oh, my God. Look what I got to do to earn my way in the world. I got to work with clients because that was most of our business. We would meet people, they like what we did. They would commission us to make something so it wasn't completely self directed, which some craftspeople are. It's like, here's what I'm making. I'll put it in a gallery. People will buy it.

Joel: All of your stuff was commissioned?

Sandra: We did a little bit of the latter, but a lot of it was commissioned. But people would see what we had done, which was very much ours, and be like, “Yeah, I want that.” So we're pretty enviable. We weren't, like, given plans off here, can you make this? That's not really what we did. It was, we will design for you. So being able to work with people and design really cool stuff that we wanted to make and then have someone pay us to do it and work at home, we didn't always have our place, like we had other shops, but that's just so rewarding. You've had the experience of now having an idea or coming to an idea, because that is a process in and of itself. Right? It's not just like, bing! I'm going to make this. There's work behind that. So doing the work to figure out framing the problem, and then coming up with a design and then doing all of the design work and back and forth to client. If there is back and forth, and then actually executing it and seeing the final product and then delivering it to usually very ecstatic, enthusiastic clients. There's something very tangible and also intangible about that.

Joel: One of the things I love the most, and I'm wondering if this is part of what you're talking about, is when I bring something home and I show it to Haley or somebody else, and they say, and I can see it in their eyes and hear in the tone of their voice, “Oh, my gosh. How did you do that!?” And the fact that I can do something that almost seems like magic, I find so incredibly rewarding. Does that does that strike a tone with you 100%?

Sandra: Well, most people I shouldn't use absolutes, but a lot of people have never done for themselves. They can't change a tire. They can't fix their plumbing. They don't sew their own clothes. Some people, like, we can now open an app and order meals pre-done to our doors. Right? And none of it's real to me.

Joel: Addition to that feeling, why is it important to sew your own clothes and change your own tire?

Sandra: It's kind of a philosophy of living, I think. If we rely on the exterior world, then we don't have that confidence in being able to kind of make our way, I think. And for me now, I mean, I reflect on this a lot, looking at the state of the planet. I think we're partly in this because we have externalized where things come from. We don't see where they come from. We don't appreciate what we have. We throw stuff away. It's like, well, if you've had the experience of spending even half a day making a thing, you're not going to throw it out, you're going to appreciate a little bit. And I've had the experience of spending, like, months making one thing. So I look at every single thing that I purchase, every single thing I think about, what is the effect of me purchasing this? Where did it come from? Is it going to, what's its end-of-life? And that's not really new for me. And being a maker has just created that for me. And had I not gone this route, I don't know that I would think that way.

Joel: When did you start thinking that way? When did you realize that you were starting to think like a maker as opposed to a college student or a biologist or a chemist or something you might have been in another universe?

Sandra: Oh, that's a good question. I remember in my second shop that I had on my own, going through a project that I'd built, and nothing bad had happened. I hadn't really made any sizable mistakes. I knew how to do everything that I needed to do. It was like, oh! This is kind of what could happen for me, that it wouldn't be a struggle. Because when you're learning and the ten months I spent was amazing. But then you're out on your own. I had no prior experience. Like a lot of the people in this program, they come in with years of that prior learning. I had none of that. I had ten months. And to make things on my own, there's nobody to ask and so it was hard. So that was kind of, I think I remember where I was standing and I can't remember what the project was, but just that feeling of, oh, wow, I just did that and it worked and it went well and I'm happy with it and yeah, I just made something worthwhile and it felt really good.

Joel: And that's when you really started to feel like a maker for the first time?

Sandra: Yeah. And I had my own shop and people were starting to pay me to do stuff and just that exchange, that's real. Making stuff in school is one thing, but then to be asked to make something, and for me, the very first time of telling someone what the cost was going to be, that was huge. It was really huge. And so gut wrenching to put out, like, I'm going to ask you for this amount of money. And I'm sure it was like minuscule.

Joel: I was going to say, do you remember how nonchalant they took it? Because I'm sure they didn't bat an eye.

Sandra: No. Yeah.

Joel: I want to go back to what you said about the state of the world being what it is because we don't make our own things anymore, which I agree with 100%. And part of me, though, wonders, did we have a choice? Individually, of course we have a choice, but living in a world where people are different and some people have kids and screaming babies and they just want to get food on the table as quickly and as painlessly as possible so they can go back to their second job or change the baby's diaper.

Sandra: Oh, totally.

Joel: Could it have been different, I wonder? I know it could have been different for individuals, but could it have been different for the world?

Sandra: I don't know. I think the Industrial Revolution, it just changed, it changed everything. And we're brought up in it and we live in it and exist in it and it's kind of like the frog in the frying pan or whatever, right. You have to get to that place where you can see what a glimpse of the alternative could be. So I fully own that what I said comes from a pace of privilege and being able to reflect. Yeah. I mean, we have to do what we have to do to get by. No judgment there. But my feeling of frustration comes when I need to go grocery shopping and you can try and not exist with plastic, but man, is it ever hard. And I don't buy things and I spend more money because I can buying the unbundled vegetables or whatever instead of those stupid mesh bags. And I know it's like the tiniest thing, but I can, so I do.

Joel: When did you first start to think about becoming a teacher, and why?

Sandra: It was a really long time ago. I meant to look that up, but I think it was around… Joe and I started our business in, I think, 2001. I think it was around 2004, somewhere around there. And I just asked Cam, like, “Oh, there's continuing studies happening at the college. What's sort of the process to do that?” And that's how I started. And I think I needed to get out of the house because working just with your partner in a little shop is both idyllic and also I wanted-

Joel: The shop was in the home that you lived in?

Sandra: It was on the property. Separate building, but on a five acre property up in Cowichan. And yeah. So it's like I would just like to get out and do a little bit something different. It was diversifying my income a little bit, and just wanting to share kind of what I thought maybe I could share.

Joel: So how did you begin to start dipping your toe in the water?

Sandra: I went to a planning meeting and said, “Oh, I maybe have this idea for a little course.” They're like, “Oh, yeah, great. When can we schedule it?” I was like, really? It was that easy?

Joel: This was the-

Sandra: Continuing studies.

Joel: That was discontinued during-

Sandra: COVID killed that whole thing. So anyway, that was my into teaching, and it's like, oh, I like this. This is pretty fun. And the best thing about it was just seeing people having that experience that I described for myself of this epiphany of, like, wow, I just made something, and it's so much fun, and it's rewarding. So I would do that a lot of Saturdays. It was just, like, one day a week courses here and there.

Joel: While you were still running the business?

Sandra: Yeah.

Joel: And then when did it become a thought of, “Maybe I'll do this full time and wind down the business?”

Sandra: I was teaching a class, and Ken was in on a Saturday, and I just popped up to his office and I said, “Ken, what would you need to teach this program?” He's one of the instructors. And he said, “Well, you need to have your red seal, and you need to get your instructional diploma.” I’m like oh, okay. And so I went away and thought about it and went, well, I don't know what the future holds, but maybe I'll just do both of those things, neither of which I had. And it was seven years.

Joel: To do both of those things?

Sandra: Yeah, it took me seven years to kind of complete them and sort of get that stuff squared away. And then shortly after.

Joel: And you did those things, that seven year process with an eye towards teaching this class, not just teaching in general, but teaching teaching this class.

Sandra: Yeah.

Joel: Did you know that Ken and Cam were going to be retiring at a certain point?

Sandra: I didn't know when, but I knew they would retire. I knew that a position would come up. I think it was about seven years from the time that I was like, yeah, I want to do that, till they retired. And I sort of had everything in place.

Joel: During those seven years did you ever start second guessing your choice?

Sandra: No.

Joel: Really? Why not?

Sandra: I just wanted to do it.

Joel: You just wanted to teach the class?

Sandra: I wanted to teach the class.

Joel: Was it competitive. Did other people apply?

Sandra: Yes.

Joel: Why do you think you got the job?

Sandra: I think I understood the interview process was about not being the greatest furniture maker in the world, but being a good teacher and knowing how to prepare a lesson. So for my interview, I had to teach a lesson to the panel on hand cutting dovetails.

Joel: How did that go?

Sandra: Oh, I was pretty nervous.

Joel: Did they actually have to do it?

Sandra: No, but I had to do a lesson on it.

Joel: The demo and everything?

Sandra: Yeah. And it was participatory in a way, so I structured it all, hitting all the points that they want you to do, like pre-assessment and post-assessment and all that sort of stuff. So I felt like I did really well at that. And a lot of the people question sort of stuff. Yeah. But I think there was three or four people interviewing me. It was pretty intimidating.

Joel: I would imagine. What is your, I know this is a tough, I mean, they're all kind of tough to answer, but what is your philosophy of teaching? How do you approach the concept? What are your guiding principles?

Sandra: Respect, probably number one.

Joel: Why is that number one?

Sandra: It's nothing without respecting each other. And I try and identify what it is that people want to get out of the learning process. Like, why are you here and what is it that you want to learn and what is your desired outcome? Because there's the outcome that the college wants to see or Skilled Trades BC, which funds most of our program. There's, like, all of the kind of dry, dry stuff. I want to get a job. I want this and that. But then there's sort of the deeper stuff, like the professional development, and, like, you, for instance, you're not going to go get an apprenticeship in a cabinet shop. So Joel is here for a different reason. So the way that I approach everyone is informed by kind of why they're here. And I don't always know why they're here, but I do ask, and some of it's kind of obvious.

Joel: How does that change? Because 100%, I can see that you're aware of that. How does that change your approach? So I'm here, I guess, “for fun,” to learn how to do this better as a hobby. Connor's here to do this as a profession. I still want to learn everything, and Connor still wants to learn everything. So you're not changing what you teach. But how does that inform how you approach me versus Connor?

Sandra: Well, I think for Connor, I might lean on him more if his like, some of his assignments, maybe that he, if he didn't hand in something that was really important to one of the industry training authority learning outcomes. And I know that he wants to work for himself and work for someone else, I'd be like, “Hey, where's your production path for this?” Done in this particular way. Whereas for you might be, okay, well, I need you to do it to show me that you can do it, but you want to learn this other thing. Hey, let's focus on that as well. I guess one of my other sort of things I try and really keep in mind is just being flexible. As people have stuff going on outside of here. And I just like to give people leeway, I guess, from listening. I've listened to most of the other interviews, and one of the things I kind of wanted to say for the record was I am actually making sure everyone is achieving the learning outcomes of level one cabinet maker / joiner. Because listening to them, for instance, Austin said, “Being here, my best is good enough.” Right? And that, so many things have hit me from the interview, my best is good enough. It's like, yeah, but you also achieved what you needed to achieve to be here. And I think when you give people space to take their time a little bit and figure out how to navigate something that's really not easy to learn and make allowances for different learning styles, then it just sort of happens that people show up and get the work done and learn what needs to be learned.

Joel: So you sort of, if not totally, answered my follow up question, which was you do that better than anybody I've ever seen. Which is, you do make sure that the learning outcomes are achieved and people learn what they need to learn, but at the same time, you do not do it in a way that's overbearing or confrontational or aggressive. And how how do you do that so well?

Sandra: I don't know. I'm not sure.

Joel: I have a hunch. I have a word in mind.

Sandra: I don't like confrontation, so I like to come up with more of a collaborative environment. And I don't see myself as like, “I am the instructor and you are all students.” I feel like there's an equality there. Like, I have the responsibility of guiding us all through the program. But to me, it feels like, I want it to be a collaborative process between your learning what you want to learn, what we're kind of slated to learn, and then all of the soft stuff in between. Right.

Joel: And I think add to that a very healthy dollop of patience.

Sandra: Yeah.

Joel: Because you are an incredibly patient person.

Sandra: Yeah, that helps, too.

Joel: I think that has to be a fundamental aspect.

Sandra: How could I not be, though? How can you be a teacher and not be patient?

Joel: That's a struggle for me. That's a struggle that I constantly have to be aware of when I teach. Once again, I think you're underestimating your skills.

Sandra: There are a few things that frustrate me where I don't feel patient.

Joel: Like what? Without obviously no need to name names.

Sandra: Oh, no, there's one thing, and that's when I'm very specific with people, like, you need to do it this way for a particular reason. And they think that my 27 years of experience, somehow I wouldn't know this, and they'll do it their own way. And I do really encourage experiment, like, hey, fine, you have an idea and you want to try that. Sure. But when I'm specifically like, hey, do this first, and the person, for whatever reason, just decides, oh, no, I'm going to do it this way, and then it's a total disaster. It's like well, I know what I'm talking about. It's not my first rodeo. Like, come on.

Joel: Here's an uncomfortable question you're not going to like.

Sandra: Awesome.

Joel: How much of that do you think you would experience if you were a man?

Sandra: Oh, yeah. Beth and I speak about this less. I feel less.

Joel: A lot less? A little less?

Sandra: A medium less.

Joel: Medium less?

Sandra: Yeah. It's subtle. It is subtle, but Beth thinks it's less subtle. She's worked in, yeah. She has a wide range of work experience and she's very keen and direct and calls it out. It’s like, yeah Sandra they wouldn't be saying that if you were a man. And she watched. Yeah, she's just observed. And so that's there.

Joel: How do you handle that dynamic as a teacher? Because I would imagine in a workplace, if you were dealing with an equal, you could tell them to fuck off and stop being a sexist pig. You're a teacher, and so I'm pretty sure you have to adopt different strategies.

Sandra: Yes. I'm not sure I quite have it figured. I don't think I have it figured out yet. I do, I do think there's creating a culture in the classroom where if you have the majority that is participating in that culture, then it actually puts those few people on the outside instead of being the majority, and that changes the balance on the whole.

Joel: You've been teaching for six years?

Sandra: This program, yes.

Joel: Has that changed substantially? Has it gotten better, I guess, is a simpler way of asking that.

Sandra: Every year is different. Yeah, every year is different. It just depends. And it's usually, it's subtle. Right. So you're like, hey, did that person just say that, or did that just happen? What was that? And is it because of my gender or not? Because you don't always know. Right? And so I try. And one of my mottos is to just assume the best in people, which I think serves me well.

Joel: Yeah, assume the best motto.

Sandra: Yeah.

Joel: What do you like most about teaching this class? And you can't say everything.

Sandra: The people.

Joel: What about them?

Sandra: Well, they're just so interesting. I get this new group of 18 individuals every September and I'm just like, almost gleeful, like, who's going to be in the class this year? Because the type of person that it attracts, I don't know. It's good. There's a really interesting mix of people every year, and I get to experience a bit of their lives and their backgrounds and what they bring into the, into the space. And that I find one of the most fun things is just those relationships and getting to know people and then also sharing and seeing people grow. Like sharing all the technical knowledge that I have and the how to and the safety and all of that. And then the way the program is structured for the self-directed creative design work that we do, that's probably my second favorite part, is seeing what people come up with and watching them develop in that way and gain confidence and just make amazing things.

Joel: What part of the curriculum is yours that you didn't inherit from your predecessors that you're the most proud of? And maybe it's not a project. Maybe it's an approach or a philosophy.

Sandra: Yeah, that's hard to pin down. I have been changing… I fiddle with the projects quite a lot. Quite a lot, which I need to stop doing because it's incredibly time consuming. But I haven't hit upon the perfect thing yet. Gosh, I don't know. There was so much in the program that is amazing. I inherited this curriculum and structure and assignments that was so revered. Like, this program is so well-loved by people, and I was terrified at taking it on and messing it up. So my first year I changed like, almost nothing. And then I started just bringing in little things, just like curriculum-wise, some updated practices and new tools and machinery. Sustainable design. That is something that I've been bringing in more and more. That's mine. Just talking about where materials come from and longevity, and that's important to me. And just talking too about diversity and inclusion and that's definitely something that I've been focusing on more and more.

Joel: It's a great segue. So I talked about this with Beth, and on the one hand, one of my favorite parts of being in this program is its diversity. I mean, I would have never been in a room with somebody like Kat or somebody like Connor or somebody like Dustin. I just wouldn't have. We wouldn't have hung out socially and we wouldn't have hung out professionally. And yet, if I send my friends pictures of the program back home and I talk about how wonderfully diverse this class is, which it is, they look at these pictures and say, “What are you talking about? There's no diversity here whatsoever.” Which is also true in a different way. How do you think about that? How do you balance that? How does that inform your approach to the class?

Sandra: That's a big question.

Joel: Yeah.

Sandra: Well, I kind of have to… I get people, right. Like, I don't control, like, how they come to the program and what their interest is. I have heard from a surprising number of people that have said, “I chose this program because you're the instructor,” which is, like, really flattering, but not really because I'm a woman. They didn't want to, I won't name the person, but someone said, “I'm tired of learning from old white men,” was what was what he said. And it was a he. It was like, oh, that's pretty cool. So I think in the, like, it is pretty unusual to have a woman teaching a trades program. I haven't done it yet, but if I added up how many instructors there are at this college in trades and how many female instructors, it's like, kind of one hand, maybe six fingers. So I think just by me kind of leading the program, there's a bit of an opening to that. And the college does a lot of work around women in trades, and there's, like, funding, and so that's all really good. I would like there to be more opportunity for an even greater diversity, and I guess it speaks to just attracting just a greater segment of the population. But if we're talking about, like, ages got that covered, right? Backgrounds. Education. There's a huge range of education from people who've just graduated high school to people with PhDs. Right. Like, all the time.

Joel: Multiple people, myself included, have talked about how wonderful it is to have two women, you and Beth in particular, teaching this program and how much just objectively better it is than other experiences in which you're taught by old white men. On the one hand, I'm not a gender essentialist, and I don't believe in gender essentialism. On the other hand, what is it that makes it so much better? Because I do think it's objectively better, but again, it's not because of your chromosomes.

Sandra: No. I think a different woman could teach it, would do it differently. I don't think that's an absolute, but I don't know. That's a hard question to answer. I am who I am, maybe because I'm keenly aware of the inequity in the world, the wider world, and then I can hone in on my little area of trades in particular, that it is, like, changing, but it's definitely still very male-dominated. And I realized, I'm kind of in the process of realizing and implementing that I can be outspoken about the things that I believe in.

Joel: Were you hesitant to do that?

Sandra: I was.

Joel: Why?

Sandra: Confidence, I think. Who am I to be…? And fear, too. Like, fear of how it's going to be received. Yeah. And just I'm not an expert in this. I don't have a degree in gender studies or anything of that nature. I just sort of know what I know and believe what I believe. And I kind of thought, like, hey, maybe I can start doing just a little bit more, just pushing a little bit, because I think that that pushing coming from me, especially for younger people, is going to make a difference. It's one thing to be, to say you're an ally to, whatever, we'll say gender, but that's not enough. Like, I learned this teaching. I had an incident that happened my first or second year of teaching between a couple of students, and it fundamentally changed the way that I manage and advocate for respect in the classroom. And with that happening, I decided that I needed to be not just going along with saying we need to respect each other, but actually, what does that mean? Because on day one, there's all the day one stuff, right? Oh, here's the policy of the college around academic integrity and equity, diversity, inclusion. It's like, yeah, no one really listens, but I take care to talk about what that means. Like, okay, well, in this classroom, here's how we're going to treat each other so that it's proactive instead of reacting to something that may happen.

Joel: I find it interesting that you said “ho am I? I'm not a gender studies professor.” But you are a woman who's been on this earth and teaching and in the industry for decades and decades and decades. Why do you or did you feel like that wasn't enough?

Sandra: Yeah, good question. I don't know. Pretty humble, I guess, sort of. Like I said, I just sort of do what I do what I do, and I'm not outspoken about my accomplishments, I guess. So it's a process of kind of owning what I can do, and I'm starting to starting to do that.

Joel: What is your, what is the most frustrating part of this job for you?

Sandra: Time.

Joel: What do you mean?

Sandra: Spending enough time with individuals to help them do what they need to do. So both in the classroom and in the shop, for sure, there's 18 students and one of me, and this is so… What we're doing is so individualized. To learn, for example, how to use a hand plane. You can watch all the YouTube in the world. You can listen to me talk about it, and then you go to your bench and you try and do it-

Joel: I had this exact experience with hand planes!

Sandra: It's like, why is this God forsaken thing not working?! I think I'm doing all the things, so there's no way to sort of figure that out. That doesn't take you, I mean, of course you could figure it out. You can go back, you can kind of like troubleshoot. But sometimes 30 seconds of me helping has the result of, it was the big thing that you needed to know to go on. So there's a lot of students and a lot of that sort of one-on-one that I want to be doing. So I try my best to get around to everyone every day, and I also encourage the class to help each other. One of the things I've learned by teaching is that it's just the best way to learn. So even though you already know something. So Connor, for example, Connor knows how to do all sorts of things, but to teach someone else how to do it, you often have to think about it critically in a way that maybe you hadn't to be able to explain it to someone else. They might not understand the first time. So you have to come up with a different way of explaining it. And in that teaching, you create a greater understanding for yourself. And so while I want to be there for everyone all the time, I can't, and it just happens organically in this class that people help each other. So I'm just okay with that now. It's like I can't be everywhere at once. So it's also important to learn how to do for yourself and figure stuff out. So I figure there's a little bit of helping each other, a bit of figuring it out yourself, and then me helping. And of course, Beth, who helps a ton, even though it's not actually quite in her job description, but she does.

Joel: Even more heroic of her. Has teaching this class over the last six years, right?

Sandra: Yeah.

Joel: Has teaching this class over the last six years changed how you feel about trade and art? Or trade or art?

Sandra: I've learned a lot more about art.

Joel: Have your tastes changed?

Sandra: My appreciation has changed. When I was in school, I remember going through the furniture history and just, like, not getting it. I'm not into this stuff, right? And so no offense to Cam. He's an amazing teacher. It just, like, a lot of people don't respond to Chippendale or medieval tables or whatever. It's not our style. It’s not the style they're drawn to. But I've just sort of… I've wanted to find a way to make it relatable and to figure out, like, well, why are we even learning this? Right? How is this relevant? And it is relevant, and just I've been having fun with bringing in examples of makers that are looking to history to foster designs, and they're doing really amazing things. It's like, look, there's kind of a real… I actually forgot what the question was. What am I answering?

Joel: Has your taste art trade or art trader?

Sandra: Art. Yeah. So I think I definitely have a greater appreciation for furniture history. And that was, like so Ken's thing. He loved furniture history, had an art history degree, and so he really was passionate about that part of the program, and it's in the curriculum for sure and was one of the daunting things when I took over. It was like, oh, my gosh, I have to teach furniture history. So it was like some serious research and kind of brushing up on my part. And I was like, oh, this is really cool. And then just being a maker and a designer, just my interest in all things art and design just blossomed.

Joel: Great. So this will be an easy one. What is art?

Sandra: Knew you were going to ask this. I don't think there's one definition. I think there's a lot of different kinds of art. I think art is often an expression of ideas. I think it's a very human endeavor. It kind of speaks to our humanity and expressing our humanity. I've struggled myself with like, am I an artist? I don't know.

Joel: Why would you doubt that? Considering you've spent 20 plus years making things. Why are you still doubting what you're an artist?

Sandra: I sometimes just think about what is a designer versus what is an artist or what is design versus what is art?

Joel: What is the difference?

Sandra: I heard kind of a neat someone's take on this. And art was it comes from the maker without outside influence. So the maker comes up with it or has an idea and expresses it, whereas design was more externally driven. Someone has a problem or a brief and asks you to solve that problem and work within parameters. And I can kind of understand that.

Joel: What do you think of my favorite William Morris quote? That art is the pleasure we take in our labor?

Sandra: Yes, that's an interesting one. I think it's very much a product of the time that William Morris was existing in.

Joel: How so?

Sandra: Well, Industrial Revolution, when basically the world changed and people were disenfranchised from their work that they had done. We'd gone from cottage industries and small scale and if you were a blacksmith, you would take care of the whole process of blacksmithing and it was a family tradition and you would have learned maybe from your father and your grandfather, and you had that pleasure and pride in what you did. And then the Industrial Revolution happened and there was the massive unskilling of labor and the stratifying of work into, you're going to do this one operation and all of the social ills that that followed.

Joel: Do you think it's not as relevant today as it was when he said it?

Sandra: I think it's relevant in a new way.

Joel: Interesting. What way?

Sandra: I think that the resurgence of, I guess what we would call maker culture now is the next, it's the next reaction. So much of history and design movements as we've looked at they’re reactions to something that happened, Arts and crafts style and movement was a reaction to the industrial revolution. I think the current maker culture is a reaction to technology. Right. I think it probably can be rewarding to sit at a computer all day if the work you're engaged in is something that you want to be doing.

Joel: Depends on what you're doing.

Sandra: If you're a writer, if you're a novelist and you're writing a novel on a computer, I imagine that could be incredibly fulfilling. But a lot of the work that's being done, again, it's, like, kind of divorced from our humanity. It never feels natural to me to stare at that thing for however long, and my phone, and it's all kind of, I don't know. Soulless. So I think people are looking for something that's, like, real. Again, something real, something tangible, something they can be prideful in.

Joel: Great lead into my next question, which you and I, I think, have discussed a couple of times now, and I would love to get your reflections on tape, which is my conviction that this is actually not primarily a woodworking course.

Sandra: You’re going to get me in trouble, Joel!

Joel No! Because I think that doesn't do the course justice. It is my submission that woodworking is an incredibly important but secondary effect. And the primary effect that you have, for so many reasons, including that you're such a wonderful teacher, is you make people better in who they are. You bring out the best in them through wood as a medium.

Sandra: Yeah. Well, it did that for me. It did that for me. Wow. It just changed my life. It fundamentally changed who I am and my belief system and what I hold to be dear and how I see the world, whether I'm walking into the grocery store or the forest. It really changed me that much. So I know it's changing other people, and it's for the good. What we find here and what we do is, I think there's a spiritual basis to it. And I don't really talk about that in those terms, but it's kind of a calling for me, I think, and for a lot of people. And even, I like to think that even if they don't continue on and do this, that spending this time here is really worthwhile to develop, like, so many things patience, appreciation…

Joel: Tolerance.

Sandra: Tolerance, yeah.

Joel: Speaking of the spiritual side of it, if I asked you to make me something sacred to you, what would you make?

Sandra: I've thought about this one a lot. I have made sacred things. My first, can I answer? can I give two answers, please? Because I have two things.

Joel: Yeah, I would love to hear both.

Sandra: I would like to make a ring, a wooden ring for my partner, Rain. That would be the first thing.

Joel: What would the ring look like?

Sandra: It will be made out of pernambuco, which is quite a rare hardwood that they make cello bows out of. And she's a musician and a fiddler, so I think that would be pretty cool.

Joel: Would it be inscribed at all?

Sandra: Oh, boy. That would be interesting. It'd be like that Japanese where they do the carving on the grains of rice. Maybe I could learn how to do that on the inside. I think fairly simple. It will have to be cross banded for short grain wood movement.

Joel: Naturally.

Sandra: Yes. I have many technical things to work out, but I will figure out what to do it how or how to do it. So that is something that I will make.

Joel: What's the other one?

Sandra: It may sound a little silly. I have this dream of taking my hand tools to the forest and spending like a week camping out in the forest and felling tree and building, probably a chair.

Joel: I think that's a gorgeous dream. Why haven't you done that?

Sandra: Time. Time is the big one.

Joel: The green stick chair.

Sandra: Yeah. But staying out there and it would be, like, I think, a devotional act, like a long meditation. Because I find woodworking with hand tools is very, it is very meditative. If you've ever used a hand plane in silence, the sound and the rhythm and then the smell, depending on what you're planing, is very rich.

Joel: I don't get that from hand planing because I still find hand planing beyond frustrating. But I very much get that from chiseling.

Sandra: Yes, same kind of idea.

Joel: Very much get that from carving out some dovetail or cleaning up corners.

Sandra: Yeah. I feel like making with intention, with great intention, would be sacred. Just like quilts. I think of quilts as having the potential to be sacred objects that someone makes for you, like someone making you a quilt. That is the coolest thing. I can see making an object for someone with great intention for them and being present, like being present throughout the process, to me, that would be sacred.

Joel: What will you remember most about this class, this year? In 30 years god forbid somebody reminds you of this class. What stands out about us?

Sandra: Tearing up a little bit. Every class is special. What we've experienced is not new to me, and it's not every year like this, but there's just the feeling of community, especially this class. And actually, yeah, a few years. There's a sense of community and cohesiveness and people having this experience together. But this year, I think, is the year that I feel like what I'm bringing to it is significant. And that doing the things that I want to do.

Joel: You’re making me tear up.

Sandra: And that I'm honoring what Cam started and Ken hugely contributed to in his, I think he was here for 17 years. So feeling like, yeah, I'm doing it, I'm doing justice to what they created.

Joel: So I wasn't going to share this with you, but since we're both crying. So I struggled for the last ten months to feel like I was creating something that was worthy of this place and your example. And I had a moment last week. It was actually when you sent me that email, when I sent you the link to this project's website. And your reaction to that email. And I felt, because I'm not a natural woodworker, but I felt for the first time that with this project, I was creating something that was worthy of you. And you're the example that you set, and so I think when you were talking about feeling that you were worthy of this class, I had a little bit of that too.

Sandra: Well, for the record, I emailed Joel and just told him what a gift he had given me.

Joel: Well, I think I'm speaking for everybody in the class when I say thank you for the gift that you've given us, because this is a gift that none of us will forget forever.

Sandra: Me neither. I'm so grateful that you've done this, and you've done it so well. And it's another example of, just look what can happen when you give people the opportunity to do things that are meaningful to them. Right? Like, I could have the same assignment. “You must do this.” But I just don't want to do that, ‘cause…

Joel: That, because that's not great teaching.

Sandra: Because that's not great teaching. Right.

Joel: What you did here is great teaching.

Sandra: And it's thank you. Thank you. And this oral history that you've created, I'm just so proud of it. It's amazing. And I know that probably applications will go up when word gets out, because it's so cool what you've done. And every single one that I've listened to, I've just learned something about the person and about the program, and I just think it's, yeah, it's just really cool what you've done.

Joel: Well, I want to end on you. And none of this could be possible without the example that you set and Beth set. And I think this word gets bandied around a lot, but I think what you're doing here is truly revolutionary, and I think I have 17 other witnesses who could verify that for me.

Sandra: Thank you.

Joel: Well, I better stop, ‘cause we're both crying. Thank you, my friend.

Sandra: Thank you, Joel.

Joel: I appreciate it.