Joel: All right, so please introduce yourself.

Sinead: Okay. My name is Sinead Ocean, and I'm 21. 

Joel: So, Sinead, what is your professional and educational background before you applied to the Fine furniture program?

Sinead: Well, I took wood shop in high school, so that's kind of when I started getting into wood and stuff. But after high school, I went to university for engineering. I did that for two years, and I just kind of hated it, so I jumped out and now I'm here. Yeah.

Joel: Why did you hate it?

Sinead: It's all very theoretical, and I kind of wanted to actually make something. I think I knew that I wanted to do that from the beginning, but my family is very academic, so I kind of went the academia route. But yeah, I mean, I like math and physics and all that, so I was, like, good at it, but I couldn't really see myself doing it. 

Joel: And your parents are academics, right? They're professors.

Sinead: My mom is a professor, yeah.

Joel: How did they react when you told them you were leaving college?

Sinead: Really chill. Yeah, I was home schooled, so my mom has never had, like, a traditional view of education, so it was pretty easy, I think. She just I mean, both my parents just wanted me to do what I wanted to do.

Joel: How did you feel being homeschooled? 

Sinead: I liked it. 

Joel: Was it just you and your mom? 

Sinead: It was me, my sister. It was a little isolating at times, but I think it was the right choice for me. I don't think I would have had a very nice time in public school. 

Joel: Why not?

Sinead: I don't know. I have ADHD, so I don't like doing things if they're not interesting to me, and I can't sit still for that long. But we lived on a farm, so I could just run around all day, and if I was into space, then I would be learning about space. And then we kind of just tailored everything to what I was into at the time.

Joel: Where was the farm?

Sinead: In Arrington, which is near Coombs, kind of mid island.

Joel: What kind of farm?

Sinead: Hobby farm. We had alpacas, we had chickens. We were big into four h, so we had lots of birds, turkeys, peacocks, dogs, cats, goats. Yeah.

Joel: Well, you sort of already answered this a little bit, but if you wanted to elaborate, what other kinds of trade or artistic background did you have before entering the fine furniture program? I know you play music or you sing, so any additional artistic experience?

Sinead: Well, when I was a kid, one of our neighbors was a blacksmith, and he had his workshop on our property, so since I was probably like, nine or ten, I would be out there working with him. So I kind of learned some metal working forging kind of stuff. Yeah. And then I took metal shop in high school, I do music. I've done a lot of fiber arts. 

Joel: What are fiber arts?

Sinead: Like weaving, knitting, spinning. We had alpacas, so we had a lot of fiber. So yeah, that would be, like, my main medium, I guess. But I've also done glass work, mostly like lamp work, beads. But I've done a little bit of glass blowing, and I kind of just like everything, so I've done a little bit of everything.

Joel: So why in that case, why did you choose fine furniture as opposed to welding or ceramics or a more intensive weaving class, or music? Why enroll in fine furniture of all the crafts and trades that you have experience in?

Sinead: I mean, I don't really think I've chosen this as my one thing I'm going to do. I kind of just see it as like, this is what I want to learn more about right now. But I think at the time that I was applying, I had been doing very theoretical math-y, science-y stuff for a long time, and I just wanted to build something with my hands, and so wood seemed like a good medium for that. And I really liked how arts-based this program was, as opposed to carpentry or welding or something like that. Yeah, I get excited by design and stuff like that. So it felt like a good meeting place of wood and designing and just something new.

Joel: So some of your other students have strong feelings about this. I don't know if you do or not, but how do you feel about the pipe trades?

Sinead: I mean, they're probably making more money than we are. I thought about, maybe I should have done that.

Joel: Yeah. Do you think maybe you might do another program after this one, like pipe trades or welding or electrical or something?

Sinead: I think so. I was thinking about doing the women in trade sampler. I want to know how to do everything.

Joel: It'd be nice to know how to do everything.

Sinead: Yeah, just a little bit.

Joel: What kind of friendships have you made in fine furniture? If you have made friendships and if so, what? What kind?

Sinead: Yeah, we have a nice little camaraderie and, like, my bench pod, me and Dustin and Den. I like the banter there. Yeah. I don't know. I guess maybe less than I was expecting. I kind of thought there would be more people my age.

Joel: How old are you?

Sinead: I'm 21, but I don't know. I like that everyone's at a different stage, and there's some really good conversations that happen.

Joel: Like what? Conversations about what?

Sinead: Oh, I don't know. Everything. I mean, politics, like, you bring up that all the time, which I like, but yeah, I don't know. Just like everyone has done a lot of things before they came here, and I like hearing everyone's stories.

Joel: What has been your best experience in fine furniture so far? And that can be a project or a conversation or a friendship, a lesson, however you want to define it.

Sinead: I think just, like, looking back on where I was when I started and then seeing what I can do now. At the beginning, I was so scared to use a table saw, and now I can just walk up to it, change the blade, do all the things, and I don't even think about it. And now doing my chair, all the designing that I've been doing, and now looking at this thing that I'm actually building, okay. I thought all these things in my head, but now I can actually make it real. And I think it's really cool to have that skill set.

Joel: Can you describe that feeling a little bit more? Because I've experienced the same thing where at a certain point, I just stand back in awe at how much I've learned. Can you tell me a little bit more about how that feels or when you first felt that way or what it was in response to?

Sinead: Yeah, I don't know if I can remember when it was. It kind of just, like, gradually happened because, like, at the beginning, I was not very confident in myself, like, in my skills at all, because I don't know, I just figured everyone else had more experience than me, but just kind of, like, slowly along the way realizing, oh, I don't need to ask Sandra how to do that. I just know how to do it. And I don't know, I feel really proud of myself, and my confidence in what I can do is really grown a lot, and that feels really good.

Joel: Has that increased confidence carried over to other aspects of your life?

Sinead: I haven't thought about that. I think so, probably. Yeah.

Joel: Since the program started?

Sinead: Yeah. I think before I started the program, I've always wanted to do trades kind of things. And I always felt like, well, no one's going to take me seriously. Like, I'm just a little girl. I don't know what I'm doing. But I think now I feel like, no, I have something to offer, and I do know what I'm doing. And I feel like thinking about, because after the program, I want to travel, and I'm thinking about doing work-away or woofing kind of things. And now, yeah, I feel more confident going to someone being like, okay, these are my skills that I have. I have something to offer you.

Joel: What has been your most frustrating or dispiriting experience thus far? And again, you can define experience any way you want.

Sinead: Definitely this chair with the compound angle mortises.

Joel: Could you talk a little bit more about that for people who have no idea what the words you just used mean?

Sinead: So the legs of my chair are sticking out in two different directions, basically. So I have a rail, and the leg is going to go into it, but I need to drill a hole for the leg to go into. So this requires drilling it on a drill press and tilting the table of the drill press two different directions. And it took me, like, two days to figure out how to do it, and it was so frustrating. And then I got to the end, and Sandra's like, no, you got to do this again. So now, not yesterday, Friday and today. I've spent all day again trying to do this, and the drill press keeps moving. I tighten it as much as I think I can, and then it just shifts again, and I think I finally got it. But it is definitely the one thing that's, like, made me want to give up the most.

Joel: Defeated by the drill press.

Sinead: Yeah.

Joel: What part of the curriculum has affected you the most, and why? And again, affected could mean made you think the hardest, changed your skills, made you reflect on your abilities, made you question your abilities.

Sinead: Yeah, I think definitely, like, the art history stuff we've been doing has been huge because I've always been really interested in art and design, but I didn't really have any sort of vocabulary to talk about it or understand it. And now I feel like I can look at something and kind of understand the time period that it was built in and, like, the context. Yeah. I just have more of a vocabulary to even think about things like that. I think also, finishing stuff really affected me because I didn't realize how toxic everything is and it gave me a lot of anxiety while we were in that part of the course, because I was like, I don't want to work with all these chemicals that are going to kill me, and is this the only option? And that really stressed me out.

Joel: Do you feel like you show stress? And I'm asking because you've mentioned a couple of times about different parts of the course that stressed you out, which I don't doubt, but every time I look over there, you are as cool as a cucumber. So I'm just curious if you think that you're demonstrating stress more than somebody like me who looks across the room and sees Sinead just plugging away with that deadly assassin look on her face.

Sinead: Interesting. I always have thought that I would put out stress. I don't know, I guess I tend to kind of keep things in, so I guess that's why I just kind of spiral in my head instead of getting frustrated. But definitely with this drill press thing, I don't know, I just move faster and I'm just like, I don't know, I think that's definitely been stressing me out. 

Joel: Do you keep things in on purpose? Is that a learned behavior or is that intentional behavior?

Sinead: I don't think it's intentional, and I've definitely been working on it a lot, but yeah, I think it's just kind of subconscious. I don't really want to bother anyone.

Joel: What do form and function mean to you now that we've spent a couple of different classes and a couple of projects reviewing those concepts? And how has this class affected how you feel about those concepts? 

Sinead: Yeah, I don't know if the class has changed how I feel about it, but again, just, like, given me vocabulary to think about it, I don't think that they're able to be separated. I don't know. I like functional art.

Joel: What do you mean by functional art?

Sinead: Like a chair that's art and you can use it. Or like a vase or like a mug, like ceramic things that are art, but you can use them for a purpose. I don't really like knickknacks or, I mean, visual art I like, but I don't know, it doesn't get me stoked.

Joel: I was going to ask you. What about paintings or photographs?

Sinead: Yeah, I don't know. It's not something that I am very skilled at or like to do you.

Joel: Do you have paintings or photographs in your room?

Sinead: Yeah, lots. Yeah, I don't know. I guess that would be one thing, but I don't know. Like, sculpture I don't really get. But I think if you're going, for me, if I'm going to make something that functions, part of the function is that it has to be beautiful. So I think for me, they're kind of inseparable. 

Joel: Has the program changed at all how you feel about art, and or how you feel about trade?

Sinead: I think just like, learning more about art and art history and stuff has just given me a deeper appreciation for things because I don't just look at a thing and then think, oh, that's nice. I can actually think about where it came from and why it was made. Yeah, I don't know if I've changed the way I think about trade, craft. Maybe just a deeper appreciation for how much work goes into everything.

Joel: Did you have any of these sorts of similar experiences during your engineering program, in terms of how you thought about art or how you thought about trade, how you thought about using your hands? Is this completely dissimilar to sort of the emotional experience of engineering? 

Sinead: Yeah, I'd say it was. The skills that I learned in engineering, I mean, I didn't go very far, so it was mostly just like calculus.

Joel: Two years, though, right? That's halfway, that’s 50% of the way.

Sinead: Yeah, I think it just, like, challenged me in very different ways and not ways that I enjoyed. Whereas here I'm very challenged and I enjoy it, and I enjoy fixing the problems and overcoming the things. Whereas when I'm like staring at a calculus problem, it's satisfying to figure it out, but less satisfying than having something I built in front of me that I can see. 

Joel: Is it the tactile nature that makes that feeling more satisfying in fine furniture than in calculus? The fact that you can lay your hand on it?

Sinead: Yeah, I'm a very tactile person, and I like being able to feel things, and I like the textures of things.

Joel: So you already sort of answered this, but I did my research paper on William Morris, who is the founder, one of the founders of the Arts and Crafts movement in England, but also was a flaming socialist. And he defined art as the individual expression of the laborer through their labor. And more specifically for him, art was the pleasure that people took in their labor. So you were saying just now about the combination of aesthetic value and form. For William Morris, anything could be art. A desk could be art. A clipboard could be art. A hat could be art. If the maker invested the process of making it with passion and enjoyed that process. And that is art for William Morris. How do you feel about that definition? 

Sinead: Yeah, I like that. I would agree.

Joel: Would you change it? Would you refine it at all? Would you add anything to it, subtract anything from it?

Sinead: I don't know. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. Yeah, I like that idea of thinking about things that people might not consider. Most people probably don't consider furniture art, but when you actually look at how much goes into it

Joel: Before we started in January, what did art mean to you? What was art for you way back in, not January, September. Way back in September, what was art to you?

Sinead: I think art kind of scared me. I hadn't really ever let myself get close to it or I don't know. My dad is an artist, and my sister is very artistic, and I guess it kind of intimidated me, and so I wasn't naturally good at it. So I thought, I'm going to stick to the stuff I know. I'm going to do math and science and I kind of secluded myself from artistic inclination, I guess. I don't know, I say that, but then I was also very crafty and doing fiber arts and stuff and glass and all that, but I think I never thought of myself as an artist. And it was always like, I thought you had to draw things on paper to be an artist, and I couldn't do that. So I was like, well, no, art is just not for me. But I think now. Yeah. I feel like the definition of art has expanded, and I do see myself as an artist now, which feels really cool.

Joel: What kind of artists are your sister and father?

Sinead: Visual art. My dad's a graphic designer and my sister is just good at drawing. Yeah. 

Joel: Has your ability to relate to them changed at all since now you are more confident in your own artistic expression?

Sinead: Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that.

Joel: Or even just your feelings about them and what they do?

Sinead: Yeah, I think I'm just less hard on myself. I feel like I'm on par, just in my own field, I guess.

Joel: Has your family, your sister, your dad, your mom, anybody? You have a partner, I think? Your partner ever mentioned that they've noticed a change in your confidence or how you talk about things or just your day-to-day demeanor having gone through nine months of fine furniture?

Sinead: Yeah, my partner definitely has. They were the one who was noticing, like, I talk about art a lot more, and I get excited about talking about art, and they had, like, a pretty intensive artistic, educational background. So there's all these things that I was interested in but didn't know how to discuss. And now we talk about art and we talk about arts and crafts and all, this thing is shaker and here's why and all those things. Yeah. I think my family has also noticed that I'm just kind of more confident about, I guess, just in general, having something that I know that I'm good at just makes me, I don't know, just like, move in the world like I have something to offer.

Joel: Do you think that that has improved your relationships with your partner or your family?

Sinead: Probably, yeah. I don't know if I haven't really consciously thought about it.

Joel: Has anybody said anything to you?

Sinead: Not that I can remember.

Joel: Like, for example, my wife has mentioned several times how much less stressed I am on a day-to-day basis. Has anybody, your parents or your partner, said anything that maybe in retrospect, you can attribute that sort of slight or great personality shift to the last nine months here?

Sinead: I don't know. I'd like, probably when I'm done, it'll be different. Right now I'm like, very stressed because it's very intense.

Joel: Are art and craft affected by economics and politics, and if so, how?

Sinead: I think so, yeah, I think if, I mean, depending on who you are and how much, like, recessions and all that affects you. And I think if you if the economy is bad and you don't have any money, like, you're not really going to be able to dedicate yourself to making beautiful things for the sake of making beautiful things. I don't know about politics. I don't know if I could articulate how that would affect it, but I think that it would.

Joel: Give it a shot. There's no wrong answers.

Sinead: Yeah. I mean, people make art in response to things all the time. Well, like, a lot of artistic movements were kind of spurred by political movements, I think, probably most of them. Yeah.

Joel: Is it possible, do you think, for a person to be a fully realized artist in our capitalist, consumer-oriented society? 

Sinead: I think it depends on who you are and how much you have to worry about paying the bills.

Joel: Can you talk about that a little bit more?

Sinead: Well, if you have generational wealth and you don't have to work for a living, then yeah, you can just devote yourself to making art for the sake of making art. But if you are someone who needs to make ends meet, there's always going to be like, oh, well, this is my dream project, but this is what people are going to buy, so I'm going to have to make the things that people are going to buy. And there's a little bit of both, but I think unless somehow…If you have to worry about paying the bills, I don't think that there is a way to get away from that.

Joel: I don't want to put words in your mouth. It sounds like maybe what you're saying is that only a rich person could be a full time artist?

Sinead: I guess so. I don't know. When you say it like that. It doesn't really feel like…

Joel: I wasn't trying to entrap you.

Sinead: Yeah. I don't know if that's true, but I think that's how I feel at the moment.

Joel: What is the first thing you would make if you had no environmental or monetary constraints? If you had all the money in the world and you could use any material you wanted without worrying about its environmental impact, what would you make?

Sinead: I guess I would just build my dream house and build all the furniture in it and make all the rugs and, what was it called? The total masterpiece that architects would do when they would design everything in the home? I think I would really love to do that.

Joel: I don't know that term. Could you tell me a little bit more about that term? “Total masterpiece?”

Sinead: I can't remember if that's what it was, but I remember when we were talking about, like, Frank Lloyd Wright and Eileen Gray, how they would, or was, it was Green and Green as well, and they would design the house. And then they would design the furniture, they would design the curtains and the textiles. They would design, like, the dish wear. And it was like this very specific vision that they had. And then the people who were living there would come in and ruin it. Not quite to that extent, but I think it would be really cool to have a place that I could just fully design and make.

Joel: What would it look like?

Sinead: I think a lot about my dream kitchen.

Joel: What would it look like? 

Sinead: I want a window over the sink and just, like, bright. I'd want, like, butcher block countertops and like, a little breakfast nook with some stools, just, like, warm. I want lots of wood. I love the warmth that wood brings to a place. Yeah.

Joel: What color would your house be?

Sinead: Oh, probably green.

Joel: If I asked you to make something sacred to you, and sacred can be either religious or atheistic, however you define sacred, maybe your dog is sacred. Maybe a relationship is sacred. Maybe God is, whichever. What would you make? What would be the sacred object that you would make if I asked you?

Sinead: Yeah, I was thinking about this, and I think when I think about the sacred objects that I have, I think what makes it sacred is the use. I don't think I could make a new thing that is sacred because I don't know, the things that I think of are, like, cookware. Like, I have a cutting board that I made in high school that I use every day, and that feels sacred to me, but only because I've been using it for so long. Like, just any old cutting board wouldn't be the same, or like a handmade wooden spoon that I use. Yeah, I think it becomes sacred through its use. So I don't know if I could make something new.

Joel: So for you, maybe there it's not about sacred objects as sacred memories?

Sinead: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

Joel: What kind of object would you make that you could most easily fill with those kinds of memories?

Sinead: I think the first thing I think of is, like, a bowl or a mug, something that you use every day. My favorite mugs are very important to me.

Joel: Do they trigger specific memories? Like, when you're sitting there having your morning coffee from your favorite mug, are you thinking about that one time in high school or that one relationship?

Sinead: Yeah, I guess it's just a collection of everything, like, every time that I've used it.

Joel: If you could only have three tools to use for woodworking for the rest of your life, what are those three tools and why?

Sinead: Is it like a single chisel? Or could I say, like a set of chisels? 

Joel: I mean, there's no hard and fast rules. Dan's going to say all of my planes, which I feel like is a little bit cheating, but you do, you do you my friend. 

Sinead: I feel like it's a table saw because it's so versatile. Table saw. Okay. Do, like, measuring tools count? 

Joel: They can. 

Sinead: Okay. Because what are you going to do without a tape measure?

Joel: I mean, not much, probably.

Sinead: Yeah. Okay. Tape measure. Table saw. Yeah. Maybe like a half inch chisel.

Joel: I had no idea how useful chisels were.

Sinead: Yeah.

Joel: I didn't know what chisels were until this class. What sensual memory from the shop do you think will stay with you the longest? One particular sight or one particular sound or smell?

Sinead: I think the smell of cutting ashwood. It almost smells like red wine. It's, like, very distinct. And now when someone's cutting it in the shop, I know what that is, and I think because when we were building those stools, we were cutting it for a long time, and it was, like, a lot of figuring and things that were happening and yeah, I think that would be it. 

Joel: Good smell. What do you think about Beth and Sandra as your instructors?

Sinead: They're just so good, and they're so encouraging, and it's really nice to have two women being the instructors. I wasn't expecting that coming into trades program.

Joel: What's particularly nice about having two women instructors?

Sinead: I don't know. I just think it's less intimidating for me, and it's nice, like, having role models that I can relate to and seeing. Like I could do that. Yeah.

Joel: Is that something that has been scarce in your experience, those sorts of female role models?

Sinead: I guess so. I mean, when I think of the people who, in woodworking and metal working all my mentors or teachers have been men, so yeah, I guess so.

Joel: What about engineering?

Sinead: I think I had one female calculus teacher, but yeah, other than that. Yeah.

Joel: So the last question is not really a question. It's more of an invitation. What feeling would you like to express, what memory would you like to think about or what piece of advice would you like to share from the last nine months that we haven't talked about or that's particularly important to you, that's maybe changed you or made you think particularly deeply? And it really can be anything. What is the question that I haven't asked you that you would have liked me to ask? And what's the answer?

Sinead: Okay, I don't know. I feel like you asked a lot of really good questions. I don't know if I can think of anything.

Joel: That's okay. Don't have to. All right, well, thank you, my friend. I appreciate it.

Sinead: Yeah, thank you.